Doug_L

Deathwatch look amazing. Special ammo + frag cannons + re-rolls means they are deadly shooters within 24". Plus you can mix and match storm shields or hammers to your heart's content. They really fit the theme of elite marines. They'll probably still get mowed down by even the most modest eldar as does everybody not loaded up on free rhinos and grav but I really like the theme of the army. My only complaints are that the other formations don't make sense when you can just take the Aquila and I don't see the utility of jump packs or bikes inside foot squads as you lose that expensive mobility...

That certainly makes sense. A guy (who is normally a hyper competitive gamer and spot-on with rules) brought it up at a tournament yesterday so I thought I'd read it myself and see what some others thought. I'll go for anything to make my poor GK terminators more survivable... hahah!

Sorry, I meant GK terminators who have brotherhood of psykers. The reasoning going that the psyker (librarian) is part of a unit that contains the brotherhood of psykers rule (terminators). The example references a situation with one of the brotherhood using a power but the first sentence doesn't make any distinction.

Mierce Miniatures (makers of the really good Banelegions and Banebeasts models) are also supporting 9th age with a 15% discount coupon in case anyone didn't see it. http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/12877-mierce-miniatures-support-for-9th-age/ I've bought lots of their stuff before (minotaur and monster models) and they are excellent quality resin models. What I find funny is that both AoW and Mierce have their own game systems... maybe they balance quantity of models sold over supporting competing systems!

Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example, a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits? A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’ models in the unit. So does this mean a GK librarian in a unit of terminators can cast something like Precognition (re-rolls for the psyker) and it affects everybody in the unit? Just curious, I can read it either way.

Woah... that is a hundred times more professional then I was expecting. I'm super interested to see what else comes out now. Just goes to show what kind of impact production values can have!

I picked up the Stormhawk today and it actually is a pretty adorable model in person. I think I'll get the second so I can make the detachment. The volume of special rules they get is impressive. For just under 500 pts I get a good crack at air superiority (vital for not just your reserve bonuses, but penalties to your opponent plus blocking potential penalties back at you!) and an absolute hammer of a squadron that comes in with significant firepower and bonuses (at least until one is shot down) like tank hunter, ignores cover (!!!), two squadron leader bonuses and +1BS/jink for a third flyer in the squadron. That gives me good odds are wrecking two skimmers/flyers plus whatever the stormtalons shoot at. Ignores cover is huge.

As long as there's no end times carpet yanking shenanigans...

I never played 6th - what was wrong with it? I can't see a new edition right away. They've released such a huge volume of supplements recently, any company would want some time to earn back the investment from development of that material. However, by next year I'd happy to see a new edition - 7th feels very, very cumbersome to me. That of course assumes a new edition would streamline rather than simply revise!

You certainly have a point - necrons/tau don't usually bring multiple flyers but others like space marines shouldn't struggle with it. All you need is 2 flyers to make the detachment. If your opponent has none, you have air superiority and impose -2 to his reserve rolls, +2 to your own... For those armies with cheap flyers, it's a huge potential upside. I think it may be very useful for Eldar - this detachment is a better deal than the crimson hunter formation - and that's 75% of most tournament opponents right there!

Objective secured flyers and reserve shenanigans.... gross! Also, I'm making a flyer detachment for totally unrelated reasons... However, the implications of this are pretty huge. My typical army uses lots of reserves. For typical tournament play, that almost mandates that I need to bring flyers otherwise the -2 to reserves is crippling! I don't really get the Stormhawk though. Basically the same thing as a Stormtalon but with +1 armour, ceramic plating and an extra gun (and a good one!) for just a few points more. There's really no subtlety there - buy our new shiny flyer!

Wow... lots of stuff in there. Some good, some bad but overall very cool that GW is willing to put their neck on the line and compile it all together. Any word on when this will be finalized and published?

Only fighters have skyfire?! Ughhhh.... I specifically painted both my storm talons for the purpose of providing a little anti-air defense. Back to the drawing board...

Rather than painter's tape, what about a stencil? You could cut out a sheet of cardboard with some nice stripes in it and just hold it over top when spraying the camo.

Are there any options for scout/outflank in the codex or does the void shield generator give you a solid zone to deploy in? How quickly can you be in assault with the wulfen and thunderwolves?

How are you planning on painting all these tanks? Spraying them a muted camo-brown/green with stripes sprayed over top? I think that would look cool and be very easy.

Can I use the dedicated transport from a command squad for other units? I thought the section on transports is pretty clear in that the dedicated transport can only carry its unit during deployment. I don't have the BA codex but I'll take a look at what options it brings when I'm next at the store. However, you did give me some things to think about. I may have been too restrictive by trying to use the new detachments and maybe the old codex already had the tools for abusiveness. What about something like (1850): Conclave (Imperial Fists - they will join grav-cannon devastator squads) 3x Level 2 librarians, all with auspexs, one with bones of osrak (the ones with bones will be by himself, the other two will work in the conclave) Skyhammer (Imperial Fists) 2x 5 assault marines with melta bomb, flamer 1x 5 devastators with 4 MM, pod 1x 8 devastators with 4 Gravcannon, pod Skyhammer (Imperial Fists) 2x 5 assault marines with melta bomb, flamer 1x 5 devastators with 4 Skyfire missiles, pod 1x 8 devastators with 4 Gravcannon, pod Honored Ancients (Iron Hands) Ironclad with 2 heavy flamers, pod Recon Outriders (Iron Hands) Landspeeder, heavy bolter, typhoon missiles I think that's pretty tough and has lots of skyhammer grav to really mess with wraightknights yet still has enough flamer weapons not to be disrupted by an Ork army. All 5 pods and assault marines are dropping in the first turn. I could swap out the landspeeder for another librarian but I'm thinking the ability to capture backfield objectives may be more useful. I'm really not sold on the skyfire missiles (25 points per model!) but it's the easiest way to sneak in anti-air and with the devastators having tank hunter, they're still adequate at hurting vehicles. To build this list I need 1 more pod, 4x more grav-cannons and 5x assault marines so it's not a huge burden to do. Let me know what you think and I'll try to get in a game or two later this month.

Oh dear, that's embarrassing I stopped at the first page and didn't read the second that had your comment in it... With that wording in mind, PotMS doesn't let vehicles over-ride the snapshots for cruising or shaken then as it pretty clear doesn't mention snap shots. Is that just a hold-over from previous editions? It essentially just allows split fire...

Maybe I should've made this three questions I was looking for answers to... Does power of the machine spirit allow you to shoot at fliers? Flyers say: "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots..." Snap shots says: "...its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots..." PotMS says: "..the vehicle can fire on more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at different target unit to any other weapons, subject the normal rules of shooting." Is that a little vague or what? What comes first - snap shots forcing the shooter to BS 1 which the PotMS then overrides allowing for full ballistic skill (similar to a cruising vehicle) or the other way around? What's the definition of "normally permitted?" The ITC FAQ addresses it specifically for flyers but makes no mention for ground units. Am I over-reading this?

I'm not particularly tied to any chapter. I chose IH as I assumed they would be the best choice.. but clearly I may not know what I'm doing. The losing isn't really a big deal, it's pulling off all my models before turn 4 that bites! I've played a hundred plus games including multiple tournaments of 4th edition so I'm not a total rookie but I was certainly surprised how quickly my terminators have been dissolving! Warhammer has never been a balanced game and has always required that level of agreement between players - hence when I should quit whining and gear up to face wraithknights . - To answer your questions, I have a big collection of models and can field just about anything. For the few things I don't own such as a TF cannon, I can certainly pick them up. - I'm not actually sure what to use with the conclave. With the GK, I like to use Santic and Divination. Without the choice of Santic for vortex and cleansing flame, I would need something else to pick up the damage dealing slack. Against the knights yesterday, I tried the new Technomancy but wasn't impressed. I got off the primaris twice but failed to roll higher to take control of a gun. I also got off the haywire beam twice but both times bounced off void shields. I don't suspect it to be very powerful against super-heavies as they ignore all the damage table results. What do you think will mesh best? - We play lots of maelstrom so there needs to be speed in the list for scoring. Most lists have smaller model counts so I don't suspect objective secured is required but certainly having the speed to grab objectives is a must. - I see your point about the unsupported skyhammer. I think the culprit is just how tight points are squeezed in there. Maybe I'm stretching too much with too many detachments? I love librarians but I suspect they are the best source for freeing up points. Alternatively, is psychic support required to really make the deathstar shine?

With the new supplement, Iron Hands are looking like a winner. My normal list is mostly grey knight terminators and then I'll mix in a variety of space marine stuff to suit. I played a lot in 4th edition, got interested in warhammer again late last year, painted the terminator army over the last winter and have got in about a dozen games of 7th in the last couple months. I always lose. Every. Single. Game. Often horrendously. My concept of winning has changed - if I still have models on the table by turn 4, I call it a win! I'm starting to think the gaming group (moved to a new city in February) are just a little more extreme than I'm used to. With the exception of two games, where the other player intentionally brought a dumbed down list (I lost those two but they were fun and down to the wire), I generally face lots of necrons and eldar with their usual tricks. Today's game was against three chaos knights. My army's current version has two multimeltas and no other anti-tank so it was a little lopsided... I don't know these guys that well so it may be easier to "go with the flow," build a really smash-mouth army now and maybe later try to encourage more relaxed lists. With my current models, I can probably make a tough IH list but I have no idea where to start! Here's what I was thinking for a first draft: Relusiam command squad Chaplain with bike and gorgon's chain Command squad on bikes, 5 stormshields, 2 power fists, 1 thunder hammer, 2 claws, apothecary How important is the chapter master for the extra tanking wounds? Points were really tight. By the same logic, I would've liked more thunder hammers but they're 30pts a pop! Armoured Company Techmarine on bike Predator with autocannon, lascannon sponsons Predator with autocannon, lascannon sponsons Whirlwind No points for ironstone but I don't have that many vehicles here to make best use of it. These guys are more of a cheap detachment to sit on backfield objectives and plink off the odd wound. Is a thunderfire cannon a good fit for this type of army? Skyhammer Detachment 5 assault marines with flamer, eviscerator 5 assault marines with flamer, eviscerator 8 devastators with 4 grav-cannons, pod 5 devastators with 2 multi-meltas, pod Honored Ancients Iron-clad with 2 heavy flamers, pod I wouldn't normally bring a dreadnought as they generally die horribly to a stiff breeze but I have the model and it's painted great so i might as well use it. I hope that with the skyhammer coming in turn 1 as well as this guy, there will be enough targets to worry about that he may be ignored. Plus, 2 heavy flamers on the first turn can be great against a big necron blob that thought it was safe in cover. Librarius Conclave 3 Librarians, all level 2, 1 on a bike, 2 on foot (with devastators) Is this looking pretty tough? Would you guys want to play against it (I'm shooting for an attitude of no...)? Personally, I think it's really short on bodies but there's so many different detachments in there it's tough to make it all fit. It's about 1900pts now so to make 1850 there's hard choices to make. I think the ironclad is the first obvious cut and then I could replace the whirlwind with a vindicator... Alternatively, I could drop the conclave entirely and put in more vehicles. There's no anti-air, should I worry about it on the top tier of lists? Any other thoughts? What would be your nightmare iron hands list to play against?

How is that hyperbole? Most players throw 3 dice per WC when they need to get it off. Honestly, you always need to get powers off as if you can only successfully manifest one, then it's pretty easy for the other guy to deny and shut down your phase entirely. So for a typical 2WC power, I'll throw 6 dice with odds of perils at just over 25%. That's pretty scary, especially as you do that phase or phase, game or game. It's worth the risk for big powers but not worth it for most of the little witchfire ones. I'll agree with you that the conclave is objectively better than not using the conclave - especially as it's the easiest means of fitting in multiple librarians. However, I think it's pretty hard to disagree that the conclave is by far strongest when it can manifest many powers a turn, using only 1 or 2 dice per each. With an average to good WC roll and 3 librarians, I have a pretty good chance of getting off 2 powers a turn - conclave or no - and my chances of perils are high. Now that I think about it, I suspect the best way to use it would be keeping only 2 librarians close to each other and keep the third off doing his own thing.

For the conclave I'd argue the other way. With three guys you have 6-12 dice a phase. If you're limited to 2 powers then you're throwing a big handful of dice at each power with a very high chance of perils. In other words, the 2+/3+ doesn't matter that often because a chunk of your powers are going off on double 6s anyways... You can have the same result without the conclave and it's a super high risk way to play. Given that space marines have no means of mitigating perils, the whole point of conclave is to be able to throw 1 or 2 dice at each power. Having the broad selection of powers is nice but 12" range is short. Again, you can get nearly the same result just using each librarian separately. In other words, ITC downright neutered a space marine formation but lets the necron decurion run unchecked? Good to know on the stormraven though. I'd forgotten about the starting on the board for beacons. I was thinking of using with GK purifiers but if that's the case, teleport homers don't work and it would need to be combined with a pod with location beacon. The thinking was drop in purifiers real close with cleansing flame and incinerators but it's too risky to drop that close without a beacon...

Looking for some clarification by this board of hallowed experts. 1. Stormtalon can unload a unit when it travels more than 6" by following its special rules (unit counts as deepstriking). Does that mean I can zoom on the board 36" and unload the cargo? That seems pretty powerful to me so I thought I'd check. Additionally, it can also take a locator beacon in its options - I assume that this beacon would work when unloading a unit? 2. The ITC ruling on psykers is that they cannot manifest more powers than they have levels (level 2 manifests 2 powers max). How does this work for the conclave channeling? It seems like a waste of points... There's no specific exception in channeling so that means a typical conclave of 3x level 2s can only manifest 2 powers a turn as ITC also specifically rules that no other psykers in the conclave can manifest that turn. Those same level 2s would probably be better off not channeling - especially if you rolled a high number of warp charge. In general, I'm not impressed with the ITC FAQ. They should have stuck to clarifying the vague things rather than making high-handed attempts at rules changes. If you're going to do that, you might as well address the serious balance issues in the game as well otherwise it comes across as sporadic. Unfortunately, every one and their donkey in North America has adopted it for tournaments.

So Ironhands can put together a formation with 1) conclave with movement spells, 2) chapter master with command squad bikes 3) a few cheap tanks in the backfield for objectives and 4) skyhammer with it's usual shenanigans. I believe I will call that my tau f**king force! Overall, it didn't turn out as ridiculous as I thought this book would but I'm quite glad to see a bit more variety. I won't actually be using the skyhammer for regular play but I think the ironhands formation and some of the psyker disciplines will definitely find some use. I really like the raptor wing formation so I'm glad it can be included as well.