peter.cosgrove

End of the phase.. because things happen at the end of the phase. When you declare the end of your psychic phase you are informing your opponent that you are done and you and your opponent can now do all the end of phase actions required, like moral checks. If you declare end of phase and your opponent throws their morale dice and then you say "oh wait, I am still casting" then either the moral check stands and you can't cast anymore anyway, or it doesn't because you are going to try to tell your opponent you just lied to them.

ya? but remember they had to go back in and rewrite things so you did everything in the psychic phase and no other powers at any other time. That's why all the FAQ's on teleportation and overwatch.

Also, you can take a Herald of Tzeentch in an Allied detachment with 12 pink horrors which will get you 5 dice cheap. And Heralds can be taken 4 to one HQ slot so you can get 14 dice for 500(ish) points and summoning perils on only double sixes.

Anyone available for an 1850 ITC proxy test match Sat/Today 1 Pm (ish). Call or text me at 503-957-7906

Umm.. The Psychic Phase doesn't end until 1. The controlling Player decides he will not cast any more psychic spells 2. The Controlling Player runs out of Warp Charge Dice. You have to give up all your warp charge dice once you say you won't declare casting any more psychic spells. So to do what you are trying to do you would have to have more warp dice, then tell your opponent "Ok, I am no longer going to cast any more psychic spells even though I have warp charge points" and then go back on your honor as a player and say, "Oh no, I lied, this rule here says I can continue to cast with the warp charge dice I had to give up when I said I was ending the phase, so I will continue to manifest these psychic powers here" "If after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or CHOOSE not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic Phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting Phase begins" So the only way the Psychic Phase can end when you still have warp charge points remaining and the ability via a special formation rule to continue casting once you declare you choose not to cast any more spells is when you declare you will not attempt to manifest any more psychic abilities. To then go back on that statement means you are lying to your opponent. My 2c.

And this, again, is why I brought up all the situationals.. which someone poo-pooed. If the "unit" is now considered to be the "unit capable of manifesting a psychic power" then I should be able to do 3 or 4 additional things like Beam Witchfires can now be measured from any model in the "unit" instead of the "unit" model that is actually casting the Psychic power with the special rule "Psyker". Since the rule for beam specifically states that you can hit even your own "unit" this is a significant change because the actual "unit" model manifesting the power will usually be closer to the "unit" model(s) you are trying to hit and will relieve you from hitting your own models in your "unit" Nova Witchfires can now be measured in it's entirety from all the models in the "unit" instead of the "unit" model that is casting the Psychic power with the special rule "Psyker unit". Since most nova's are AOE this means you will hit even more models in enemy "units" And Finally... Perils of the Warp wounds can now be allocated to any model in the "unit" that is manifesting the Psychic power. So instead of my Psyker model taking a wound I can instead allocate it to a list member of the "unit" that the IC Psyker has joined. Because you know... it's now the "unit" that is manifesting the spell, not the model. Even though "Psyker" special rule specifically says model.. not unit. And "Psyker Unit"specifically is referred to mean Psyker Model, Psychic Pilot Vehicle, or Brotherhood of Psyker/Sorcerers "units" for all special rules and all rules purposes.

There it is... Page 24.. it doesn't say that.. What it says is... "Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase" So unless you are saying that a Space Marine Command Squad is capable of manifesting a psychic power, then the term unit is referring directly to... Psyker "A Model with this special rule is a Psyker...." Psychic Pilot "A Vehicle with this special rule is a Psyker..." Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers "A unit containing at least one model with THIS SPECIAL RULE [please note. Not Psyker... Not Psychic Pilot) is a Psyker Unit... Because of .. "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules.' A unit capable of manifesting a psychic power is specifically, and only, a model with the special rule "Psyker", or a vehicle with the special rule "Psychic Pilot" or a unit with the special rule "Brotherhood of Psykers" according to Page 22... "Sometimes Psychic power might be manifested by a vehicle, or even by entire squads" The rule of "no unit" is specifically referring to manifesting a psychic power. The paragraph is even titled "MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS" so the only way that a non psychic squad could be capable of manifesting is if the squad gains the psyker/psychic pilot/brotherhood of psykers special rule. The only way the single use of unit in that one sentence can possibly be used according to English comprehension is specifically to units capable of manifesting Psychic Powers. To apply that term unit to some other definition of unit that includes both the definition of units that are completely incapable of manifesting psychic powers and units as joined by IC's, is a failure of English comprehension. You need to read the whole paragraph and the whole section and all the special rules. The only units capable of manifesting psychic powers are models with the Psyker special rule, Vehicles with the Psychic Pilot special rule and units with the brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule. These special rules are not conferred onto a unit that a model as an IC with the Psyker special rule has joined, therefore a squad without the psyker/psychich pilot/brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers special rule are incapable of manifesting a psychic power and therefore shouldn't even be considered as a unit capable of manifesting a psychic power or a unit with the psychic special rules being conferred upon them. It's the same thing as infilitrate... This is not rocket science..

Actually, let me back up. Still kind of channeling the original conversation where I was told that having 5 librarians with a command squad meant that the command squad was only allowed one power. The reasoning I was given was not "It's ITC rules" but was based on the "but no unit can attempt to manifest" in the BRB. And to use that discussion point is frankly bollocks. Reading the ITC forums and Frontline Gaming Forums where they are talking about banning psychic lists and that psychic powers are OP and need to be nerfed, ok whatever. That just means I need to just not go to ITC events. The problem is that the 2 gaming events I can go to every week both use ITC. So either scratch 40k off the list of weekly scheduled hobbies or work through the issue. And at this point someone is going to say.. well just don't use psykers. And that answer is asinine, or facetious at best. It's part of playing chaos. Chaos space marines gets ML3/4 Psykers with Spell Familiar. It's one bit that's better than Space Marines.

Well, two things. First, by everything I have been able to read on Frontline Gaming's forums, the one cast per unit rule was based on the perceived need to nerf psychic based lists. They were looking at things like limiting the number of psychic dice, banning certain psychic powers, or limiting the use of powers to one time per psychic phase, and in fact banning any ability that brought units onto the board outside the original points cost. What they settled with was this one time per unit thing and changing Invisibility to BS/WS1 modifiable. And that's it is it? Is it really that bad that you have to screw someone over who likes a certain play style that is perfectly legitimate according to the base rulesets? Second. The rule of "one cast per unit" is a case of failed English comprehension. The BRB states... "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules.' and... "Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way but no unit can attempt to manifest the same Psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase" So unless someone is saying that a Space Marine Command Squad is NOW a psyker unit and having the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psyker's/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules, then unfortunately no the 2 Librarian (Psyker [pg 170]) that join the Space Marine Command Squad does not turn the entire unit into a unit capable of manifesting psychic powers more than once per psychic phase. Because the only way that the Space Marine Command Squad could count as a unit capable of manifesting the same Psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase is if either the Space Marine Command Squad is considered to have the Psyker Special Rule "For the Purposes of All rules the Term Psyker or Psyker unit..." and then IF and ONLY IF the IC joining the Space Marine Command Squad conferred the Special Rule "Psyker/Psychic Pilot/Brotherhood of Psykers" onto the Space Marine Command Squad which is directly contraindicated on pg 166 Independent Character "When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Psyker/Psychic Pilot/Brotherhood of Psykers is a special rule. How is an IC with this special rule that joins a Space Marine Command Squad conferring the Psyker special rule to the Space Marine Command Squad to such a fashion that the Space Marine Command Squad is now considered a unit capable of manifesting a psychic power? Especially since each one of those special rules states... Psyker "A Model with this special rule is a Psyker...." Psychic Pilot "A Vehicle with this special rule is a Psyker..." Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers "A unit containing at least one model with THIS SPECIAL RULE [please note. Not Psyker... Not Psychic Pilot) is a Psyker Unit... The special rules specifies Model... not unit.. the only Unit designation is specifically for Brotherhood units. Does a Librarian have Brotherhood of Psykers Special rule... no it doesn't. A Librarian in either Power Armor/Terminator Armor/Bike is a MODEL and the model is a psyker. There is nothing in the BRB or the GW FAQ that indicates that 2 or more librarians joining a squad as IC's makes the whole squad one single psyker unit for the purposes of manifesting psychic powers. If you want to hide behind "oh well, it's just ITC" fine.. do that, but you should be ashamed of yourself because the gaming store Frontline Gaming wanted to nerf certain types of armies when they wrote that rule. But if you want to use the basic rules for it then you need to go back and actually read the rules.

Ok, so.. OrdoFanaticus is running a 40k Ladder League using the ITC rules.. So I will ask the question again.. Is OrdoFanaticus saying that the ITC rules for Psychics apply to the OrdoFanaticus 40k Ladder League. And if that's the case then how does it apply specifically to having two casters, one of which is Ahriman (who's special ability is specifically FAQ'ed by Games Workshop to state that Ahriman can cast the same spell up to 3 times, cast the same spell.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Space_Marines_EN.pdf Amendments Page 60 - The Black Staff of Ahriman, rules. The second sentence should be replaced with: 'It allows Ahriman to attempt to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per Psychic Phase'.

Is this tournament going to be using the ITC interpretation of "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase." as meaning that regardless of how many seperate Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psyker models are in a single unit the whole unit can only cast one witchfire power?

So. Does that mean that an AS with Bolt can cast Bolt and then Ahriman who has joined the TS unit with the AS can then cast 3x more Bolts in ITC?

So in ITC Ahriman is not allowed to cast the same witchfire Psychic power 3 times?

Well, after burrowing into the rules I notice that Force "is a blessing psychic power that targets the Psyker and his unit, all of the target's weapons that have the Force special rule gain the Instant Death...etc" So if a Psyker joining a unit with other psykers was already considered to make them all one uber psyker unit then why would they need to say "His unit" Wouldn't that already be part of the IC joining the unit making them a psychic unit redundant? And B. Oh hey.. check that out.. I no longer have to cast force 5 times. cool.

The BRB doesn't say that. Not like that. The BRB says "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase" It is one complete sentence. The sentence does not begin "No unit can attempt... etc." the BRB also states that Psyker unit refers to any unit with the psyker, psychic pilot, or brotherhood of sorcerer special rules. And how would that work for say... A thousand son's aspiring sorcerer with Bolt and Ahriman with Bolt in the same squad. Can I cast the AS bolt and then the Ahriman bolt 3x? for a total of 4x bolts? Or if I cast the AS bolt does it disallow the Ahriman bolt 3x? Or does it mean the AS bolt counts as one of Ahriman's 3x bolts? Or do I have to use Ahriman's special ability first for 3x bolts and THEN cast the 4th AS bolt as a normal Psyker unit. Ahriman's errata from GW.."It allows Ahriman to manifest the same witchfire power up to three times per psychic phase" Note that it doesn't say Ahriman's unit... or Psyker.. It specifically states Ahriman. And Finally, if the Unit is now considered a psyker unit can I cast beam weapons from the base of any of the models? Instead of the actual Psyker model? since a Psyker IC joining a non Psyker unit is conferring Psyker Unit status to the unit as a whole. And how are Nova's measured then. If a Nova is a 6" cast then it's now considered range 6" from the bases of any or all the models in the unit since the unit is now considered a whole psyker?

so the BRB states "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker" and "Psyker unit" refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhoos of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules" And... "unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rule's are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the IC's special rules are not conferred upon the unit" So are you guys saying that having Psykers in a unit of non Psykers confers Brotherhood of Psykers or something like that to the non-Psykers? So if I take a Perils of the Warp I can have that wound allocated to a member of the unit they have joined? Because the whole sentence is "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psyker power more than once per psychic phase" This would mean that an IC joining a non-psyker unit, in order for the limitation of the term "unit" being applied to the unit as a whole would have to confer Brotherhood of Psyker or some such for the Unit to be termed a Psyker Unit and attempting the manifest the same psyker power. So if the unit as a whole entity is one Psychic Unit I can put a perils of the warp wound anywhere in the unit. for example.."Mental Purge: The Psyker suffers 1 wound..." and "For the purposes of all rules the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the psyker..." and "no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power..." So if 3 psyker IC's join a unit and that unit is considered a whole 1 psyker unit for recasting then it's one psyker unit as well for wounds.

Yesterday was in a tournament where the rules person available stated that multiple psykers in a unit couldn't cast multiples of the same spell. I had a command squad (elite) that was joined by Tigurius (hq/ic) and 4 other librarians (hq/ic) from 2 other factions/detachments. I had cast 1 psychic shriek from one of the librarians. When I attempted to cast a 2nd psychic shriek from one of the other 3 librarians I was told that the unit could only cast 1 of a psychic power. As per pg 24 BRB "No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase" The ruling was based on the joining of the separate IC librarians to the command squad becoming part of the unit therefore the command squad and 5 librarians are a single unit and a single unit can attempt to manifest more than one of the same psychic powers more than once per turn. Please note, this was not a Librarian Conclave. This was a weekly paid tournament at a local venue that is a consistent place for me to play so I am not comfortable continuing in the tournament unless this issue is resolved. My contact information. Peter Cosgrove 11921 SE Bush St Portland, OR 97266 503-805-5499 harlequin_corps@yahoo.com

Spearhead formations were the first formations. It was the first cohesive document in the whole game that said "take a FOC that looks like this and you can get this benefit from it" So, while I understand the whole out of print/not currently on sale (currently sourced) discussion point (because the ITC rules I have found state that it has to be available for sale from GW/FW to be usable), I don't think the "spearhead is spearhead" works because the thought process of "normal mission/normal FOC" means that no formations can be used. The normal game rules have to already be modified to use formations, so someone would then have to say " you can use any formations except the formations that are documented in the white dwarf issue 366, because there are a lot of formations listed throughout GW/White Dwarf after issue 366 that are ALSO spearhead formations. In the current Space Marines codex, pg 182, is a Land Raider Spearhead formation, so saying you can't use spearhead formations you are saying you can't use that spearhead formation in the current sourced codex. I also don't think the "currently sourced" thought process would work if I could still call up GW and ask them if I can purchase an out of print copy of issue 366, because the rules say currently sourced, so if I can still buy it from GW I can still use it. I also don't think the "in print during 7E only" would work either because the CSM codex is 6th Edition which means you can't use the entire codex. The BRB states that the benefit to having a battle forged army "as a reward for adhering to these requirements, each detachment grants it's own Command Benefits" and "If you opt to choose an army using this method, your units are organized into Detachments" and "you will find further Detachments to use in your games of Warhammer 40k in our codexes and other Games Workshop publications" and "formations are a special type of detachment" and "It is not uncommon for them (sic Formations) simple to describe a number of special rules" So the spearhead rules were written so you could use formations before there were any rules for using formations, and these rules were for spearhead formations. We have the newest set of spearhead formations in the most recent codexes and White Dwarf 366 is a GW publication. So if I could call up GW and purchase an out of print copy of WD 366 then what additional restriction would limit the use of the formations described in WD 366 according to the current BRB?

You have to implement something that makes it better than playing golf. For a certain type of individual heading to a golf course, drinking a beer while walking or riding through a manicured park in beautiful weather is very relaxing. Even if no one else shows up you can still go play a round on your own. These are things you can't do playing 40k. Golf and 40k have a lot of similarities. You have to spend a large amount of money to put your own kit together, you tend to spend a certain amount of time practicing or planning when you aren't playing. Before you take an action you generally look at the terrain and obstacles to figure out where you can go and what range you have based on your kit. The worst part would be having people show up and no one is available to play. Second worst is an overabundance of house rules or weird rules adjudication. Having a judge who is also a player who is also the person you are playing who is also using a house rule that doesn't play the same as everywhere else that overwhelmingly benefits the person you are playing is somewhat disheartening. And third would possibly be conflicting time/date with other venues.

I can bring Chaos Space Marines. I don't have the new Apoc book but I can run the Lords of the Black Crusade and the Thousand Sons War Coven with an additional maybe 3000 points of CSM. I also have a Plague Tower built according to the original rules for Apoc (700 pts), would that even be ok to play?; because it looks like the only super heavy that CSM get anymore is that baneblade with the chucky skull puppet slap glued on top. I would need to know because I would have to fix it from it being dropped a couple times.

going to be a slow weekend. Anyone free for a 40k 2k game? txt at 503-957-7906

Are the spearhead formations legit for competition.. if so, or not so why. From the 2010 Spearhead warhammer 40k supplement. they keep coming up on Army Builder as legit formations in the Chaos Space Marines Codex but the button to add units hasn't been updated. Also, in there is all the new fortifications kind of mixed and matched so I don't know if it was compiled oddly. http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85966&d=1270178918

503-957-7906

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