Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[InfestedKerrigan]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

You have to Summon it to do that with a 'Thirster.

Whoops. None of us caught that yet.

[WestRider]

I don't think any Daemons have a Deep Strike equivalent anymore.

[SigurdBC]

3 hours ago, WestRider said:

I don't think any Daemons have a Deep Strike equivalent anymore.

Unfortunately not, and that's why I believe Daemons got nerfed HARD in 8th. Not being able to deep strike forces you to either "deep strike summon" most of your army or foot slog it up the field while you rely on a 5++ to save you most of the time. Big disappointment that Daemons lost that ability in 8th. 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, SigurdBC said:

Unfortunately not, and that's why I believe Daemons got nerfed HARD in 8th. Not being able to deep strike forces you to either "deep strike summon" most of your army or foot slog it up the field while you rely on a 5++ to save you most of the time. Big disappointment that Daemons lost that ability in 8th. 

But deployment is a lot faster now. No more piles of random rolls for equipment at the start of every game. 

Regarding nerfs, I think the Daemons got nerfed offensively with things like the loss of deep strike, but majorly bolstered defensively in other ways. Better armor saves, higher toughness monsters, more wounds, removal of instant death from the game, and so forth. And I bet their offensive nerf will be fixed with an actual codex, when/if they get one. 

[VonVilkee]

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

But deployment is a lot faster now. No more piles of random rolls for equipment at the start of every game. 

Regarding nerfs, I think the Daemons got nerfed offensively with things like the loss of deep strike, but majorly bolstered defensively in other ways. Better armor saves, higher toughness monsters, more wounds, removal of instant death from the game, and so forth. And I bet their offensive nerf will be fixed with an actual codex, when/if they get one. 

This! Most armies lost some of the things that helped them in mono builds but made them no brainer choices as allies. We are seeing these abilities come back as stratagems which self limit and force choices. Do I go soup and have the best units or do I go more specific and make use of the CP synergies available? Having enough CP to do what you want is a balance too. It seems like a great mechanic (once you can participate) for allowing certain niche abilities without charging every model points for it wether they use it or not. 

[Guest]

Okay, rethinking hellbrute builds. Reducing BS while moving makes heavy weapons more iffy on melee builds. Melee weapons are also very expensive, so I don't think dual melee weapons is viable on hellbrutes.

Put together one Hellbrute (Heavy Flamer+Helbrute Fist, Twin Heavy Bolter) 146pts. The reaper autocannon is only 1pt more than the twin heavy bolter, but I figure that the extra 2 shots should help. Plus, against many targets, there isn't a huge difference between S7 and S5, which is one of the facinating features of 8th. 

Put together a Rhino (2 Combi-Bolters, Havoc Launcher) 85pts. Not sure what's being transported yet.

Been locating models. Can't find most of my terminators, but I think I've found most of the infantry. I'm also setting aside piles of models and bits that I can't use with CSM, like infantry plasma cannons and scout marines, I suppose I'll be selling those in the future, let me know if you want some cheap metal plasma cannons or scout marines. 

[Guest]

Huh. Just notices that dedicated transports aren't really dedicated to a particular unit anymore. I suppose I put cultists in a rhino. 

Maybe unrelated, I also noticed I could meet the requirements for a Brigade Detachment on my Chaos. 6 units of 10 troop cultists is a meager 240pts. 3 bare units of berserkers is 240pts. 3 units of 1 fast Chaos Spawn is 99pts. 3 units of bare heavy Havocs is 195pts. And three bare Chaos Lords is 220pts. So at 994pts I can meet the brigade requirements with CSM as the faction. If, instead, my faction is Chaos (or Khorne), I can replace the chaos lords with Heralds of Khorne, which are 3 for 168pts, dropping my total to 806pts. Granted, that 806pt army is terrible and really needs some upgrades, but facinating that it can be done. 

[peter.cosgrove]

On 10/16/2017 at 10:13 AM, paxmiles said:

Okay, rethinking hellbrute builds. Reducing BS while moving makes heavy weapons more iffy on melee builds. Melee weapons are also very expensive, so I don't think dual melee weapons is viable on hellbrutes.

Put together one Hellbrute (Heavy Flamer+Helbrute Fist, Twin Heavy Bolter) 146pts. The reaper autocannon is only 1pt more than the twin heavy bolter, but I figure that the extra 2 shots should help. Plus, against many targets, there isn't a huge difference between S7 and S5, which is one of the facinating features of 8th. 

Put together a Rhino (2 Combi-Bolters, Havoc Launcher) 85pts. Not sure what's being transported yet.

Been locating models. Can't find most of my terminators, but I think I've found most of the infantry. I'm also setting aside piles of models and bits that I can't use with CSM, like infantry plasma cannons and scout marines, I suppose I'll be selling those in the future, let me know if you want some cheap metal plasma cannons or scout marines. 

I would rethink the multi-melta on the helbrute that has it. The 12' double tap for the cost compared to either lascannon or missile launcher is kinda..meh.

the other thing I would rethink is, with that kind of list, look at nurgle helbrutes in a nurgle detachment. They don't have the -1 to BS for moving.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

I would rethink the multi-melta on the helbrute that has it. The 12' double tap for the cost compared to either lascannon or missile launcher is kinda..meh.

the other thing I would rethink is, with that kind of list, look at nurgle helbrutes in a nurgle detachment. They don't have the -1 to BS for moving.

I'm still in the Chaos Index only, so I don't think I have access to nurgle helbrutes with any different rules. I'm certainly leaning khorne, anyway, but that's certainly something to keep in mind.

Regarding the MM, yeah, I thought it was pretty meh too. Single shot on a unit that is BS 4+ when moving isn't really worth it. It is a lot cheaper than the Twin Lascannon (27 for the MM, 50 for the Las). I think if I could deep strike the Hellbrute, I could justify the MM, but I don't think they are worth it as is. Mainly, that list is was about testing as many WYSIWYG models as I could find, while remaining low in model count to field. 

Though I suppose if I include 1+ Chaos Lords in the army, I can use their re-rolls of 1s to minorly boost the accuracy of my Hellbrutes. Hmm...If I do, maybe Hellbrute Plasma Cannons + Missile Launchers...?

Another thought is that the idea of pairing like weapons is more a last edition thing, as I can freely target different units in this edition, and still charge yet another unit, so no need to pair weapons, I suppose. 

[Guest]

Edited the Page 1 list. Still testing things. 

I am thinking for hellbrutes, the most TAC build is probably Missile Launcher + Fist + Heavy Flamer. Loyalists can't do this with dreads, but chaos hellbrutes can (as could chaos dreadnoughts in the past edition). Missile Launcher with frag missiles looks good for moving and firing, while I can make them stationary for that krak missile.

Added some Berzerkers, though I don't have many yet. Rhino is for them. 

Added a Chaos Lord. Weapon loadout is because chainfist is -1 on attack, so some opponents might be more practical to hit with the maul - dunno if I'm just overthinking it or not. He'll advance with Hellbrute body guards. 

Tactical Squads are weak additions. I plan to alter their loadouts later, if I like them in the army. Mainly, I'm testing the battalion option. Basically all are various forms of light backfield units. 

Havocs with heavy bolters seems like a decent addition due to the rules for 8th. 

[Guest]

Lost again, this time to astra militarum. Again, issue was a lack of speed, I think.

Opponent had 14 command points, and a codex with stratagems. This game was a real eye opener on the need for a codex. Bought the CSM codex...I've spent so much on books this month, don't think I'm buying any new models anytime soon.

[Guest]

Okay, now that I have the CSM codex, wow, some changes in there. 

-Looks like Chapter traits only apply to Infantry, Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes (FAQed), and Biker units. So while my Predator, for example, is of a given legion, it doesn't benefit from the chapter trait rule. Also means that units from the index which are not included, like the Chaos lord on Juggernaut, cannot benefit from the legion traits since they are not on the list. Kinda annoying.

-Several units got significant point reductions, like the Vindicator, which dropped 25pts. That Lord of Skulls dropped in cost (100pts cheaper) AND power level,and is now listed as only power level 29 (39 in the index). Even the basic power fist dropped by 8pts. 

-So I've noticed that there are several units and options within the codex which make taking units with the fly rule seem like a bad idea. I like Jump Infantry, but I'm hesitant to field them when I find things like the Flakk Missile Stratagem, which, for 1 CP, hits them on a 2+ with normal missile launcher for d3 mortal wounds. On the other hand, I did note that the Helldrake has no mimimum speed and is no longer preventing from assaulting ground targets, so is essentially a jump infantry version of a dreadnought (which would be a really cool conversion).

-There are some pretty impressive stratagems that depend on certain weapons or units being on the table. One for trios of Vindicators, one for missile launchers, one for trios of predators, one from Daemon Vehicles, one for characters with bolt weapons, and a whole bunch that only affect infantry/Biker units.

[Guest]

Regarding the summoning of units, after rereading the rules for doing so, I note that the unit summoned is determined AFTER rolling to summon them. So I roll 3 dice, add them together, and THEN pick a unit that power level (or lower) to summon. Means you can't fail to summon, since there are units at power level 3 for all deities (Furies), though rolling a total of 3 (triple 1s) would be really bad for other reasons (d3 mortal wounds to the character). 

As for my army faction, I'm leaning towards calling them Word Bearers (they'd still be smiling Skulls, just count as Word Bearers instead of Renegades). Kinda mediocre in terms of Legion options, but kinda sounds like how I want to run them. I don't want World Eaters or Emperor's Children because those lock me into playing a specific deity. Of the non-aligned, Renegade really loses out in stratagems and such. Alpha Legion has some ridiculously OP options, but I think they force me to redesign my army too much. Iron Warriors is a close second. Never liked black legion, fluff or otherwise. And Night lords is another that just fit how I do things. 

[WestRider]

3 hours ago, paxmiles said:

-Looks like Chapter traits only apply to Infantry, Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes (FAQed), and Biker units. So while my Predator, for example, is of a given legion, it doesn't benefit from the chapter trait rule. Also means that units from the index which are not included, like the Chaos lord on Juggernaut, cannot benefit from the legion traits since they are not on the list. Kinda annoying.

-Several units got significant point reductions, like the Vindicator, which dropped 25pts. That Lord of Skulls dropped in cost (100pts cheaper) AND power level,and is now listed as only power level 29 (39 in the index). Even the basic power fist dropped by 8pts.

Legion Traits would still apply to Index Units that are Infantry or Bikers. I think that's just the Lord and Sorcerer on Bike.

Oddly, the ChainFist didn't change along with the PowerFist, leaving it badly overpriced, since the two are pretty similar, and it's certainly not a 10 point upgrade over a PowerFist.

[Guest]

My copy hasn't arrived yet, but found a "free" copy online to peek at the FW rules. So first big thing is that there aren't any CSM units with the Hellbrute, Infantry, or Biker keywords...so no legion traits on any of them (Rapier crew, I think qualifies). Doesn't hugely matter, as they are almost all extremely overpowered. 

Of the FW Chaos units I already own, I have a Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer, a few Rapier Batteries (metal ones), and many Contemptor Dreadnoughts (well, RT dreadnoughts, but they look the part). I could certainly make many of the others from scratch, convert to them, or purchase them, but that's something for another time.

That Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer got some pretty insane rules. Last edition it filled a similar role, but wasn't nearly as durable and certainly didn't have the offensive punch that this one has. So, this edition, it's T9, 2+ save, 22wounds, 2+ BS (with no damage taken), plus it has additional rules for both healing wounds in the Fight Phase, and for Falling back and still being able to shoot. It's main offensive attack is heavy 4, 4+d6 damage with -6 AP. For Strength, it oddly rolls 3d6 and compares to the target's leadership, wounding automatically if it exceeds - this does mean that high leadership units will be unkillable, but most big creatures don't have leadership 10+. Yeah, insane rules. Built with just the described gun and the base vehicle (which is how mine is built), this guy is only 470pts....

Contemptor Dreadnoughts (not Contemptor Hellbrutes, these ones are Dreadnoughts...) aren't anything to write home about. Basically, they are a Hellbrutes that aren't. They are slightly better in most areas. Notably, they have superior weapon access (more choices AND better choices), 2+ WS and BS, 2 extra wounds, a 5+ inv vs shooting and 4+ inv in the fight phase, and cost about 40pts more than a Hellbrute (before weapons).

Additionally, both the Contemptors and the Cerberus, have a variant of the vehicle explosion rule, where when/if they explode, psykers caught in the blast take potentially more damage (d3 goes to d6, d6 goes to 2d3). Still only explodes on a 6.

[WestRider]

All the Characters in the Lords of Ruin section have the Infantry keyword, and the Hellforged Contemptors, Deredeos, and Leviathans all had the Helbrute keyword added in FW's update to the Index. That said, the RT Dreads have a similar look to Contemptors, the Contemptor is substantially larger than even a regular current Dread. The RT ones would be tiny by comparison.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, WestRider said:

All the Characters in the Lords of Ruin section have the Infantry keyword, and the Hellforged Contemptors, Deredeos, and Leviathans all had the Helbrute keyword added in FW's update to the Index. That said, the RT Dreads have a similar look to Contemptors, the Contemptor is substantially larger than even a regular current Dread. The RT ones would be tiny by comparison.

 

Totally missed the update bit regarding hellbrutes. Awesome, thanks. Read that twice before posting and couldn't find it on my own, must be tired.

They may be tiny, but the RT dreads include contemptor on that chasis. This isn't counts as, using the RT dread as Contemptor Dread, it's WYISWYG. Just like using RT rhinos to represent the current Rhino model (which is also larger than it's predesessor). A good chunk of the FW/GW creations are just remakes of old RT models. 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1989mo/c1989mop0012-00.htm (Top Left), the Contemptor Dreadnought. 

That said, if you think they are too different in size, and you think that will matter for the opponent, I could look into basing them on hills or something, to make up for the size difference. Honestly, being shorter seems like a disadvantage, for the most part. Screws up line of sight and such. That said, I will definitely have them on the correct size base for the new model (60mm rounds, right?), not the 40mm squares they came with (even though, those would also be legal bases). 

Anyway, not sure how many I'll actually field. They are spendy in points and use the same slots as my hellbrutes. 

[Guest]

Okay, starting to put together a plan...If I build the list around the idea of having that Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer in the army, then abilties which lower my opponent's leadership become more practical since it's ridicious weapon attacks Vs leadership (with really only a 50% chance of harming leadership 10+ if we assume average rolling). So, if I take the Night Lords, I could potentially lower a high leadership target in the movement phase, so they'd be weakened in the shooting phase. Definitely starts to shape the army. Hmm...yeah, I might go this route.

[Guest]

Minorly edited the list on page 1 to reflect point changes in the CSM codex and that I'm doing Night Lords. I don't plan on keeping that list, but fun to note that my 1999pt list from last week is now a 1962pt list...

[WestRider]

I forgot that the Contemptor and Deredeo were original Dread builds.

[Guest]

Okay, further list tinkering.

 

Finally hit me that the current rules for the Helldrake make it into basically a Jump Infantry Dreadnought. See, it is a flyer with no minimum speed, and a vehicle with both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. Definitely going to have to make one converted from a dreadnought. Always thought GW should make a jump pack dreadnought, now we got one. 

 

On the fence between Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Night Lords is that -1 leadership for enemies within 6" (stacks up to 3 times) which works well with my Cerberus, but that's really all I like about their rules or fluff.

Word Bearers grant re-rolls on morale checks, which makes low morale units, like cultists, considerably more viable. I also like the Word Bearer Stratagem (1 CP, re-roll any of the dice for daemon summoning, and the character doesn't suffer wounds for doubles) and the Word Bearer's Relic Weapon (Power Maul with -2 AP, 3 damage, and re-rolls failed wounds against Imperium units). The Word Bearer Warlord Trait add 3" to the range of Aura abilities for the warlord, which is neat, but not amazing. 

 

Another debated topic is Contemptors vs Hellbrutes vs Decimators.

For starters, the Hellbrute is nice because it benefits from Legion Traits, has solid weapon options, and I own a bunch of them. On the downside, it is slow and has no cheap speed options (even IF I owned any Dreadclaws, they are 200pts each in this edition, so really aren't a cheap transport option). The Hellbrute lacks an invulnerable save, which is often why it dies (because 3+ saves only go so far against anti-tank weapons). There is a Stratagem that allows a stationary Hellbrute to fire twice in a given turn. 

The Contemptor is a +44pt Hellbrute with +1 strength, +2 wounds, and an invulnerable save (5+ vs shooting and 4+ vs melee). It counts as a Hellbrute for the Legion Traits and Stratagem, and has some pretty awesome additional weapon options, plus the ability to pair alike ranged weapons. But it's more expensive and aside from the invulnerable save, it really isn't more durable. Additionally, the Contemptor has a degrading profile which begins having superior speed, WS, and BS, but becomes equal to, or weaker than, the hellbrute as it takes damage. 

The Decimator is basically a Hellbrute at +18pts, but is a Daemon Engine instead. This means a 5+ invulnerable save and that he doesn't have a Legion trait (he's still a legion model, just doesn't gain the trait) and doesn't qualify for the shooting twice stratagem. On the other hand, as a Daemon Engine, he qualifies for a different Stratagem which grants re-rolling hits and wounds for one shooting or fight phase.   And the Decimator has similar weapon access as the Contemptor. The Decimator has +1 attack over the hellbrute or the Contemptor, and +1 strength over the Hellbrute.  Of the three, the Decimator is the fastest, with 10" base movement. Additionally, as a daemon, certain chaos daemon abilities work on the decimator which don't work on the other two (like the Herald's +1 strength aura or the Bloodthirster's ability to share leadership).

Although I don't own any current contemptor or decimator models, I could certainly make some, either out of hellbrutes, RT models, or with just scratch building them, so cash cost isn't really the issue at hand. 

 

Unrelated, I'm thinking I'm going to try having 340pts set aside as Reinforcement Points. I'll use that for either:

 

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage 340pts

-or-

Karanak 116pts

Chaos Furies (5) 60pts

Chaos Furies (5) 60pts

Flesh Hounds (5) 100pts

 

I could field this as an Outrider Detachment, but ultimately, I don't think I can fit them all in my list and also all the CSM I want to bring. Plus, summoning allows them to enter from reserve. 

As for who does the summoning, that depends on the opponent. If I have to come to them, I might need to turn 2 before I can summon anything (because characters can't summon the same turn they move, like arriving from reserve). If the opponent comes to me, I can summon them with a Warpsmith (or two) in my backfield, since they don't need to move anyway.

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Finally hit me that the current rules for the Helldrake make it into basically a Jump Infantry Dreadnought. See, it is a flyer with no minimum speed, and a vehicle with both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. Definitely going to have to make one converted from a dreadnought. Always thought GW should make a jump pack dreadnought, now we got one.

Additionally, the Contemptor has a degrading profile which begins having superior speed, WS, and BS, but becomes equal to, or weaker than, the hellbrute as it takes damage.

I actually have a MaulerFiend that someone started adding wings to. At some point, I plan on finishing it up as a Helldrake.

When thinking about the Contemptor's degrading Profile, I think it's worth keeping in mind that by the time it's worse than a regular Helbrute in any regard other than Mv, the Helbrute would be dead. Probably significantly before that, really, because of the Invul.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, WestRider said:

When thinking about the Contemptor's degrading Profile, I think it's worth keeping in mind that by the time it's worse than a regular Helbrute in any regard other than Mv, the Helbrute would be dead. Probably significantly before that, really, because of the Invul.

Worse, yes, by the time the contemptor is worse than the hellbrute, the hellbrute would already be dead. That said, the period where the Contemptor is merely "as good" is at the half way point (5 wounds taken). Furthermore, the Contemptor drops speed quickly, being reduced by 3" in the first group, making it slower than a hellbrute. So, while it's more likely to survive longer, I question the Contemptor's ability to actually get into melee and to perform better once in melee. 

My thoughts are including that the contemptor is +44pts more than a hellbrute. That's alot. If it's only better half the time, I'm not sure it is worth the increase. Hence, why I'm looking at the Decimator, which seems more likely to be able to get into melee, even if it's less durable otherwise. Only +18pts for a Decimator. OR, I could just keep to the Hellbrute and accept that I'm not going get these guys into melee. 

My issue, lately, is that my forces just aren't fast enough. I try to make melee range, but I've lost most of my forces by the time I get there with the hell brutes. Sure, the flat distance isn't hard, but there's usually an obstacle or enemy mobility that makes getting into melee hard.  Reserves will help, and I plan to add some units for that, but last game opponent had counter-reserve units with the scouting ability to deny my chargers (his were scout sentinels). 

But Contemptors could be best. Not sure. So on the fence here. I think if I go word bearers, then I lean towards decimators, since the legion trait of re-rolling morale isn't really lost on a single model unit. If I keep Night Lords, then that -1 leadership aura is really something I should push for, so Contemptors or hellbrutes are the route I need to take. 

[WestRider]

Yeah, for CC Dreads, the Contemptor's advantage is less. I usually use mine primarily for firepower, so the difference in movement on the second profile is less important.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, WestRider said:

Yeah, for CC Dreads, the Contemptor's advantage is less. I usually use mine primarily for firepower, so the difference in movement on the second profile is less important.

If just going ranged, I really think the Decimator has both the Contemptor and the Hellbrute beat (unless your legion traits boost the dreads while they are at range, like Iron Warrriors or Alpha Legion). Both the Contemptor and the Decimator have a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting, and they have similar weapon access.

Plus, I think that Fire Frenzy Stratagem is iffy for a long range unit, since it requires shooting at the nearest target and not moving, which kinda limits you if the the nearest target isn't what you want to shoot. That Daemonforge stratagem is pretty solid for damaging the opponent (re-rolls to hit and would), since it doesn't restrict movement or shooting. 

For CC dreads, the real question is if the contemptor can get into melee or not. More wounds and a 4+ invulnerable in assault is awesome, even with a degrading profile. But they have to be able to get there, and that's the real concern, since their degrading profile reduces their speed rapidly. Too bad CSM doesn't really have a transport option here (we do, they are just insanely expensive in points, like the dreadclaw or the mastodon...). 

Hmm...thinking more about it, I suppose if I take the Renegade trait, I can advance and charge with the legion trait, so the Contemtors and Hellbrutes would effectively have more speed. Don't really like that trait, but is an option. 

Oh, and this is an option, and a big one, I could field detachments under more than one Chaos Legion and still retain the legion traits provided they were seperated by detachments. As is, the Super heavy has to be either in it's own detachment, or in that of a supreme command, which could potentially be it's own legion. Something to consider.

As an unrelated aside, each time I work on the list, I conclude that I need a psyker. I know, khorne, so I'll leave them undevoted, or perhaps take another deity. The issue is that CSM have some awesome psychic power support, and very light psychic defense, aside from including psykers, so I really should add a psyker, I think.