Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 First, Can I heroically Intervene on my own turn? If yes on the first one, can I heroically intervene after falling back on the same turn? Also, is heroic intervention subject to overwatch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 1) Heroic intervention is after enemy's complete charge moves. So if the enemy charges you on your own turn, yes. 2) HI is not charging, so yes. 3) HI is not charging, so no. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Oh, one more. I can heroically intervene with a unit that isn't engaged, right? As I read it, there's not actually a requirement for my character to intervene on a combat where my models are being engaged. I could actually just advance to about 3" from the enemy, then if they don't move away or charge me (or kill me), I can heroically intervene into melee range on their turn. I'm still not charging, so they might go first, making the whole thing really risky on my end, but something I hadn't really noticed before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, pretre said: 1) Heroic intervention is after enemy's complete charge moves. So if the enemy charges you on your own turn, yes. 2) HI is not charging, so yes. 3) HI is not charging, so no. @Pax take note of number one and re-read the heroic intervention... it is pretty specific. An enemy unit has to complete a charge within 3" of the character... pretty hard to complete a charge move and not be engaged within that sphere... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: @Pax take note of number one and re-read the heroic intervention... it is pretty specific. An enemy unit has to complete a charge within 3" of the character... pretty hard to complete a charge move and not be engaged within that sphere... Doublechecking my reading is important, as I often get them wrong on the first read. And the rules here are really only two sentances. Just wondering, where are you finding the requirement to have the enemy unit complete a charge within 3" of the character? I see that I need to wait until after the enemy finishes their charge moves. Then if I have a character within 3" of an enemy unit (not an enemy charging unit, just an enemy unit), I can perform a heroic intervention. The futher limitation is that I must move closer to the nearest enemy unit, so I couldn't use this to get out of one combat and into another, since the nearest model would be the first one. As written, seems like I can even perform heroic intervention while within 1" of the enemy models, provided I end the turn closer to the nearest enemy unit (so I could use this to move to their back facing, provided I end the turn closer than I started). The enemy can easily prevent this by just moving into base contact, rather than keeping a gap in the 1" melee radius. This sort of thing is common in Warmachine, which uses similar melee range rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 34 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: An enemy unit has to complete a charge within 3" of the character... pretty hard to complete a charge move and not be engaged within that sphere... This is incorrect. They just have to complete their charges and the character has to be within 3" of an enemy unit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Interesting I misread it but it is before the actual fighting sub phase correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: Interesting I misread it but it is before the actual fighting sub phase correct? Unclear if it occurs in between the Charge and Fight phase, or if it is considered part of the Charge Phase. It exists as a text bubble between the two and isn't listed for the summary of either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 It says 'after the opponent has made all of their charge moves' so it is at the end of the Charge Phase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Also, it's to the closest enemy model. That doesn't necessarily mean the charging unit. As long as your opponent does any charge moves, i/e declares, rolls dice, succeeds in the charge distance, and moves at least one model (because you only have to move one model to complete a charge), and you have a model with heroic intervention within 3 inches of an enemy unit, you can move the model 3 inches closer to the nearest enemy model. Since the model is within 1" at the beginning of the fight phase it gets to fight. Seems kinda broken, but there's nothing in the FAQ that I have that changes it. I might have an older one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Can you "move through" a friendly unit, or do you need to wrap around friendlies? EEE FFFF ...C...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said: Seems kinda broken, but there's nothing in the FAQ that I have that changes it. I might have an older one. Meh, all the brokenness is extremely avoidable. If you charge to base contact, they can't heroic intervention at all (since you can't get any closer than base contact). They can only use it if the enemy unit is within 3" after you make your charges. So with a normal turn order, it would only matter if you left unengaged characters within 3" of your units on turns that you charged. The only real abuse I'm considering is out of phase charges, like soulburst. As written, it might trigger heroic intervention which would really nerf the value in charging the during the opponent's turn. Then again, I find soulburst really OP, so nerfing it seems fine to me... Had a recent game where my hellbrute charged some guardsmen, only to find out that one of the suspected guardsmen was not part of that unit, and in fact a company commander with a power fist, who used heroic internvention to get into combat. That said, the player couldn't roll any hits for some reason, so it didn't last. But it was a good idea. 1 minute ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Can you "move through" a friendly unit, or do you need to wrap around friendlies? EEE FFFF ...C...... Moving through models, if the character can fly, yes, otherwise, no. You could draw the 1" melee range through allied models, though (there's a basing reason on modeling for advantage...25mm bases would be able to do this, while I think the 32mm rounds are too big). But, it goes both ways, so not sure it would be a real advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 move through units yes, move through bases/models no right? Edit regardless of side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 34 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: move through units yes, move through bases/models no right? Edit regardless of side Oh, yeah, you are able to move inbetween models regardless of units. Just can't move through their bases/models unless you have fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 hours ago, paxmiles said: Meh, all the brokenness is extremely avoidable. If you charge to base contact, they can't heroic intervention at all You missed it. After the enemy completes a charge, if you have a character within 3" of an enemy unit, the character can move up to 3 inches closer to an enemy unit. Before the fight phase. The unit that the character is 3" away from doesn't have to be the unit that charged. You can have a single unit that charges on one side of the table and a character 4 feet away can do a heroic intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 24 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said: You missed it. After the enemy completes a charge, if you have a character within 3" of an enemy unit, the character can move up to 3 inches closer to an enemy unit. Before the fight phase. The unit that the character is 3" away from doesn't have to be the unit that charged. You can have a single unit that charges on one side of the table and a character 4 feet away can do a heroic intervention. No I didn't. If you have a unit within 3" of the opponent's models at the end of your turn. The opponent takes their turn and moves, pskyers, shoots, then charges - and in all this, you still have a model within 3" and get to jump into combat without counting as charging, that's not broken, that them allowing it to happen. Easily avoidable. They could have moved away, they could have melted your model's mind in the psychic phase, they could have shot it to nothing, and they could have charged it. If they instead ignore your model, and it's able to heroically intervene in a combat, that's because they chose to allow your models to heroically intervene. Nothing broken there. ------------------------ Regarding the base contact, I was refering to denying them the option to move while aready in melee range, but to disengage from one opponent and to engage another. This can be done by having a gap between models and moving with a move that ends "closer to the nearest model. For example, if enemy's are X and my model is Y, and periods are 1/4th of inch between models: XX...Y..X If the first two X are one unit and the other X is another unit, I could use heroic intervention to move out of range of the first 2, provided I end my move "closer" to the other unit. Like this: XX.....XY Now I'm not engaged with the first two models, just the last one. If they are all one unit, this doesn't matter, but it could really matter if these are two units. This isn't done in the Fight phase, so they can't pile in to direct attacks, they are just denied combat. And the way to deny this tactic is simple, the enemy just moves one of their models into base contact. XX...YX No more heroic intervention since I can't get any closer to the nearest model if they are in base contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 6 hours ago, paxmiles said: No I didn't. If you have a unit within 3" of the opponent's models at the end of your turn. The opponent takes their turn and moves, pskyers, shoots, then charges - and in all this, you still have a model within 3" and get to jump into combat without counting as charging, that's not broken, that them allowing it to happen. Easily avoidable. Ya, ok. I see what you are saying. But it's only avoidable by your opponent if your opponent always charges. In that one situation where you have a character within 3 inches of an enemy unit and your opponent only wants to charge with one unit and doesn't want the unit that is closest to your character to get into within 1", then your opponent has the choice of either charging and hoping you forgot the rule, charging and hoping you don't notice, charging and hoping you don't want to get your character within 1", or not charging. I think it's broken RAW which may very well be RAIPAI, which, given 8th edition may actually be the case. for that one single time, where your character just happens to be out on his/her tod and your opponent says it's clobberin time and you are sweating, hoping your character doesn't get all shot up, doesn't get all shot up and you at least have some choice of which unit you get to fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said: Ya, ok. I see what you are saying. But it's only avoidable by your opponent if your opponent always charges. In that one situation where you have a character within 3 inches of an enemy unit and your opponent only wants to charge with one unit and doesn't want the unit that is closest to your character to get into within 1", then your opponent has the choice of either charging and hoping you forgot the rule, charging and hoping you don't notice, charging and hoping you don't want to get your character within 1", or not charging. I think it's broken RAW which may very well be RAIPAI, which, given 8th edition may actually be the case. for that one single time, where your character just happens to be out on his/her tod and your opponent says it's clobberin time and you are sweating, hoping your character doesn't get all shot up, doesn't get all shot up and you at least have some choice of which unit you get to fight. Sounds like you are viewing this with only the charge phase of a turn, rather than putting it in context of the entire turn. I Advance my Bloodthirster (yeah, it's a character) within 3" but not within 1" on my turn. My turn ends. Your turn. At no penalty (aside from normal moving penalties), you can just move away. You can shoot it in the shooting phase, psychic power it in the psychic phase, and you could even choose to charge it. You could also choose to not charge anything. That said, if you get done with your charges and that Bloodthirster is still within 3" of one of your models, him being able to move into melee range is not broken. That's your fault. Hard to justify this as broken. And Heroic Intervention is optional, I could still decide to not heroically intervene with my bloodthirster. And no, I'm not hoping you forget this rule, I'll probably even mention it. The only real advantage here is that I can "encourage" you to move units that are within 3" of my character. They'll either move away (making their BS worse with heavy weapons) or charge me (which puts me in melee anyway, which as a Bloodthirster, is exactly where I want to be). As for abuse, the only abuse I see is regarding units that can't move (like buildings). But even there, I could use this to "encourage" you to make no charges on your turn, which would deny this option to me. It's a tactical thing, not a loophole. Like moving the Bishop to threaten your Rook. Doesn't win the game, but makes you consider your options, and potentially this works to my advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelharis Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Does the enemy need to actually "charge"? I mean, can't you read "complete charge moves" as "I have 0 charge moves, and I have completed them"? The charge phase happens whether charges occur or not... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, Kelharis said: Does the enemy need to actually "charge"? I mean, can't you read "complete charge moves" as "I have 0 charge moves, and I have completed them"? The charge phase happens whether charges occur or not... I imagine this would be acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Dig dig dig for dem loop holes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Kelharis said: Does the enemy need to actually "charge"? I mean, can't you read "complete charge moves" as "I have 0 charge moves, and I have completed them"? The charge phase happens whether charges occur or not... One of those where you mention this concept to the opponent before the game starts, so you are both on the same page while playing. I don't really see the problem either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 no. a model must complete a charge move. Check the charge. It says "If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase" HI says "completed all of their charge moves" If the charge fails it's not complete. Because it says "charge move" instead of "charge phase" if no charge move was completed then you can't HI. That's RAW though, so maybe when they typed "charge move" they really meant "charge phase". In which case RAW is different that RAI. It's not a far leap of logic to assume that they may have meant the "charge move" to be the last subphase of the charge phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 5 hours ago, happycamper said: Dig dig dig for dem loop holes.... Not Paxs style. He's striving for a perfect understanding of an imperfect game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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