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evil_bryan

5 reasons why list rating does not work, #4 will shock you!

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Okay, now that I have an appropriate click bait title for what can be an emotionally charged issue I can get started. 🙂

After answering this question for one of the captains, I thought it would be useful to post my position so others had the opportunity to judge me harshly. 🙂 
 
Not having list rating in this year's 40K OFCC reflects my personal opinion on it not being worth the effort it takes. I have a few issues with list rating that I am happy to share to better frame my decision not to have it.
  • List rating requires early list submission, which historically has been a challenge for many teams
  • List rating is terribly subjective, and the only way to minimize that is to have lots of raters reviewing the same lists to come to an average score
  • List rating is very time intensive, which is multiplied as you have more the one person rating the same lists
  • List rating requires an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the various 40K armies, rules, and unit interactions
  • Finally, list rating causes drama because regardless of how hard you try there will be folks who are unhappy with their rating

My alternative to list rating is reward versus restriction. With achievements like Old School and No Surprises, I want to encourage people to build friendlier lists and openly share them with the community (who can provide feedback as needed.) Also, tools like Challenge matches and the Captain's forum can also be leveraged to further enhance the team/player experience. It is not a perfect system and still needs work, but I believe it is the better way to go.

Now that I have said my piece, let the judging and feedback commence! 

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I enjoyed myself just fine without the ratings as such. I think it should be delegated to the captains to make it clear, OFCC is not about winning, You get NOTHING for crushing your opponents, and having a softer or medium list is just fine but not required. Just make sure your team is balanced and you don't have everyone bringing a tougher list.

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1 hour ago, Dark Trainer said:

....having a softer or medium list is just fine but not required....

Snipped by me, Pourspelur

All your points were great but this is the one I'll disagree with. Medium to softer is where we should be shooting for. Always gonna be those that push the boundary. If we all draw the line at medium, the outliers will only end up in the "solid" bracket. If you say the line is at solid, the outliers will have "face melting tourney winner" lists.

I fully agree the onus should be on captains and their team instead of a committee though. Seemed to work pretty well this year with still policing.

(Also, it's super easy for me to push more responsibility to the Cap'n because I'm not a captain!)

😉

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I lost all but one of my games and can say I had a great time. I think as long as it is conveyed to every player that shows up (well in advance) that OFCC is a non-competitive tournament about bringing fun and fluffy lists, then list ratings is no big deal.

 

I played one and only one game where I really stood no chance in heck of winning and it was because my opponent didn’t understand that it wasn’t a ‘real’ tournament prior to submitting his list. I still had a good time and we both laughed it off.

 

I think that’s the point. Making it clear to folks in advance that they are coming to ‘play a game’, not ‘win a tournament’ 

 

Aside from that I think getting team match ups and lists out to captains in advance and prompting them to have dialogues with one another about good match ups might be helpful.

-So, in that sense I think a sort of minor rating system would be called for. Maybe one where a few folks glance over short form lists and stack them and sort them by team. Not assigning any one list a rating but saying- ‘Okay, these three teams have players with big guns and knights and stuff, we should make sure they are assigned match ups.’ I know I’m probably oversimplifying the point. I know things aren’t always going to be fair, but usually as long as people know the beat down is coming and can expect it- they won’t complain afterwords. That’s why an early dialogue would help a bit. 

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15 minutes ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

 my opponent didn’t understand that it wasn’t a ‘real’ tournament prior to submitting his list. I still had a good time and we both laughed it off.
 

Sounds like that captain missed some crucial explanations...

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1 hour ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

I believe the team that got best Sportsmanship had a player with 4 knights for a list. 

 

Does that answer your question as to people reception/perception of them being used?

You are correct sir! That said sugarless llama is the storiest story dude you will meet so I let him bring his awesome knights! Edward way too impetuous, Kestral the stalwart daughter... so much story there and he bought them right out of the gates in 7th so has mostly the older patterns. 

 

I as the captain tried very hard to have a more balanced team over all and only a single list with knight class models (mortarion, magnus, knights themselves etc). Even then my matching was so I have a full knight list who you got that wants it? I let the other captain dictate more of the matches as a result. I've always found it better to match based on temperament than list (with in reason) and I try to use tables to rebalance awkward matches.

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I was curious how the no list rating would play out, and IMO, this was the best OFCC in years in terms of the armies and attitudes people brought.

There were a few dark years there before we scrapped the best generals award where the OFCC was starting to get pretty competitive. I was on the list rating committee one of those years and I will happily never do that again. It wasn't the time or responsibility that was an issue, but the endless whinging about it. 

Not only is it subjective, it also seems to encourage people to game the system. Like in prohibition era, people drank more (god bless 'em) because there was an allure to getting away with doing something you're not supposed to. That's been my general feeling on list rating. The intent is respectable but it might exacerbate the "problem" more than correct it. 

I'm totally fine with handing the responsibility to captains. I'm also totally fine with never being a captain and instead verbally abusing my captain for foolishly taking on the responsibility. What a dunce!

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I agree completely with the difficulties that were laid out in the original post by evil_bryan.  Not one point of disagreement

I acknowledge that its difficult, but I think that you can go to any tournament and get the same spread of "okay that wasn't so bad" and the "Good lord, does that man have no SOUL" type lists that you get at OFCC when there is no rating.

I valued the hard work people did on ratings.  We mostly shot for lower rated armies anyways and always had themes that were necessarily restrictive but, well, themed.  We did Rolling thunder where all things had to be on servos or in a transport.  We did hordes with no less than 120 models.  We did all Tau with Stealthsuits and Everyone had to feature Stingwings. And so on.  We knew it was hard work to grade these, but we were appreciative that they did.

We didn't really consider going this year. or last year.  It wasn't a protest or anything dramatic like that.  It's just that the event sort of (by which I mean 100% exactly) turned into a painting contest the last year we went; and now list rating which was what made it special, is gone (and had in fact kind of been gone for all practical purposes before that because of the crazy stuff people wanted to allow).

I for one definitely miss the spirit of the event.  The people have almost always been fun.  But that would have happened without OFCC.  What OFCC brought was a different set of rules that made the games more fun intrinsically, instead of simply relying on a great guy to continue to be a great guy which he was probably going to be anyways.

I tell people about OFCC all the time, but now I just tell them "don't go if you aren't a world class painter.  The cost is pretty high and it's pretty much the lists you always see at any lower priced event."  Saying that makes me super sad.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I agree completely with the difficulties that were laid out in the original post by evil_bryan.  Not one point of disagreement

I acknowledge that its difficult, but I think that you can go to any tournament and get the same spread of "okay that wasn't so bad" and the "Good lord, does that man have no SOUL" type lists that you get at OFCC when there is no rating.

I valued the hard work people did on ratings.  We mostly shot for lower rated armies anyways and always had themes that were necessarily restrictive but, well, themed.  We did Rolling thunder where all things had to be on servos or in a transport.  We did hordes with no less than 120 models.  We did all Tau with Stealthsuits and Everyone had to feature Stingwings. And so on.  We knew it was hard work to grade these, but we were appreciative that they did.

We didn't really consider going this year. or last year.  It wasn't a protest or anything dramatic like that.  It's just that the event sort of (by which I mean 100% exactly) turned into a painting contest the last year we went; and now list rating which was what made it special, is gone (and had in fact kind of been gone for all practical purposes before that because of the crazy stuff people wanted to allow).

I for one definitely miss the spirit of the event.  The people have almost always been fun.  But that would have happened without OFCC.  What OFCC brought was a different set of rules that made the games more fun intrinsically, instead of simply relying on a great guy to continue to be a great guy which he was probably going to be anyways.

I tell people about OFCC all the time, but now I just tell them "don't go if you aren't a world class painter.  The cost is pretty high and it's pretty much the lists you always see at any lower priced event."  Saying that makes me super sad.

It is too bad you have missed that last couple of years as I have personally run the 40K event, and I think we have addressed several of the issues you mentioned here.

Let me tackle the big one, the painting score 🙂

Last year, I overhauled the way paint is measured. I wanted to make good scores achievable and make it easy to evaluate on a large scale. I also wanted to make the scores as objective as possible so that two people could come to the same conclusion on scoring.

In addition, I changed the weight of paint score in the calculation for Best Overall.

  • Best Overall = 40% Sports, 25% Painting, 30% Spirit, and 5% Captain Achievements

Pasted below for your reading pleasure is my paint scoring rubric.

 

Scoring Criteria

Basing
Textured/painted/flocked/resin/etc.

Painting
Represents the three-color minimum

Depth
Extra care for shading and highlighting

Detail
Modeling, conversions, putty work, etc...

WOW Factor
A great representation of an army/faction/team

Basing
0 - Bare plastic or resin, void of paint or basing material
1 - Paint or basing material applied
2 - Multiple colors, a variety of material, the bases demonstrate a level of care and effort

Painting
0 - Bare plastic, only primer, less than 3 colors
1 - 3 or more colors, generally referred to as tabletop standard
2 - A variety of colors, shades, and tones setting the model apart from the standard

Depth
0 - No effort made to illustrate the depth of the model's details
1 - Drybrushing, washing, edge highlighting to varying degrees
2 - Blending, smooth transitions, skillful application of the techniques listed at level 1

Detail
0 - Model is built as designed with no variation
1 - Some conversion work, purposeful construction to demonstrate variety, scratch building, minor sculpting
2 - Heavy conversion, extensive scratch building and/or sculpting, clearly a unique representation of the army

WOW Factor
0 - A tabletop presentation that does not go far enough to stand out from the crowd
1 - Unified and cohesive, can definitely stand out as an excellent example of the force represented
2 - A true showcase, representing the highest level of skill and technique of our hobby

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I agree completely with the difficulties that were laid out in the original post by evil_bryan.  Not one point of disagreement

I acknowledge that its difficult, but I think that you can go to any tournament and get the same spread of "okay that wasn't so bad" and the "Good lord, does that man have no SOUL" type lists that you get at OFCC when there is no rating.

I valued the hard work people did on ratings.  We mostly shot for lower rated armies anyways and always had themes that were necessarily restrictive but, well, themed.  We did Rolling thunder where all things had to be on servos or in a transport.  We did hordes with no less than 120 models.  We did all Tau with Stealthsuits and Everyone had to feature Stingwings. And so on.  We knew it was hard work to grade these, but we were appreciative that they did.

We didn't really consider going this year. or last year.  It wasn't a protest or anything dramatic like that.  It's just that the event sort of (by which I mean 100% exactly) turned into a painting contest the last year we went; and now list rating which was what made it special, is gone (and had in fact kind of been gone for all practical purposes before that because of the crazy stuff people wanted to allow).

I for one definitely miss the spirit of the event.  The people have almost always been fun.  But that would have happened without OFCC.  What OFCC brought was a different set of rules that made the games more fun intrinsically, instead of simply relying on a great guy to continue to be a great guy which he was probably going to be anyways.

I tell people about OFCC all the time, but now I just tell them "don't go if you aren't a world class painter.  The cost is pretty high and it's pretty much the lists you always see at any lower priced event."  Saying that makes me super sad.

I’m confused, you basically say you want a friendly event where winning doesn’t matter but also upset that painted is scored so high?  If winning doesn’t matter why does the painting matter to you?

not trolling curious

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7 hours ago, Munkie said:

I was curious how the no list rating would play out, and IMO, this was the best OFCC in years in terms of the armies and attitudes people brought.

There were a few dark years there before we scrapped the best generals award where the OFCC was starting to get pretty competitive. I was on the list rating committee one of those years and I will happily never do that again. It wasn't the time or responsibility that was an issue, but the endless whinging about it. 

Not only is it subjective, it also seems to encourage people to game the system. Like in prohibition era, people drank more (god bless 'em) because there was an allure to getting away with doing something you're not supposed to. That's been my general feeling on list rating. The intent is respectable but it might exacerbate the "problem" more than correct it. 

I'm totally fine with handing the responsibility to captains. I'm also totally fine with never being a captain and instead verbally abusing my captain for foolishly taking on the responsibility. What a dunce!

You're welcome 😝

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8 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

LH saying as an event organizer, he understands the hard choices the HOG goes through.

LH disliking the Power Level some armies innately bring to the table, and wanting to ensure a fun, stress free gaming environment for the majority.

LH having a get off my lawn moment being part of the long time Ordo crowd.

 

6 hours ago, happycamper said:

I’m confused, you basically say you want a friendly event where winning doesn’t matter but also upset that painted is scored so high?  If winning doesn’t matter why does the painting matter to you?

not trolling curious

 

22 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

You must be new here.

 

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People paint Forgeworld models sometimes, therefore painting is bad!

😉

Couldn't resist throwing some shade, only because I like Hanaur.

That said LH, I've disagreed with you before but never this much. Could have been luck of the draw, could have been excellent matchmaking by the Captains but this year kinda hit the sweet spot. Paint was important, but not all-important. Missions and sportsmanship were king (imho).

Long story short, I found your fears unfounded and you missed out on one hell of a weekend.

Too bad, I'd love a rematch!

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13 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

We didn't really consider going this year. or last year.  It wasn't a protest or anything dramatic like that.  It's just that the event sort of (by which I mean 100% exactly) turned into a painting contest the last year we went;

Wait a minute, I distinctly recall you being critical of how heavily weighted the sportsmanship scores at the 2016 OFCC were. Were they both too heavily weighted? 

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57 minutes ago, Munkie said:

Wait a minute, I distinctly recall you being critical of how heavily weighted the sportsmanship scores at the 2016 OFCC were. Were they both too heavily weighted? 

No.  I thought they were not weighted enough.  The fun time goals werent either.  It was a painting contest.  You could max out EVERY other score...  and be in the bottom because paint was THAT weighted.  This was a major issue to me and really should have been to anyone.  Sportsmanship and fun time stuff should have been given far more weight.  I can perhaps find those ludicrous numbers because I just couldnt fathom it.

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5 hours ago, PourSpelur said:

People paint Forgeworld models sometimes, therefore painting is bad!

😉

Couldn't resist throwing some shade, only because I like Hanaur.

That said LH, I've disagreed with you before but never this much. Could have been luck of the draw, could have been excellent matchmaking by the Captains but this year kinda hit the sweet spot. Paint was important, but not all-important. Missions and sportsmanship were king (imho).

Long story short, I found your fears unfounded and you missed out on one hell of a weekend.

Too bad, I'd love a rematch!

Last time I checked, we dont live that far apart.  You can have 10 rematches.

I'm glad you had fun.  I dont want anyone NOT to have fun, so keep doing it.  I still steer people to OFCC if they are good painters.  I  had the BEST opponents I had ever gotten the last time I went.  No joke.  The best.  The lists were another matter in 4 of 5 cases.   At some point you just say "I can get those matchups at any ITC event.  Didnt come here for that" you know?  

And lest you think thats sour grapes talking or something, you can see how I did.  It wasnt that.

You're a good egg and I hope you have as much fun at future events as you did at this one.  You're a great example of what OFCC needs more of from the times I've met you.

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7 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

No.  I thought they were not weighted enough.  The fun time goals werent either.  It was a painting contest.  You could max out EVERY other score...  and be in the bottom because paint was THAT weighted.  This was a major issue to me and really should have been to anyone.  Sportsmanship and fun time stuff should have been given far more weight.  I can perhaps find those ludicrous numbers because I just couldnt fathom it.

If only someone had fixed this problem!

21 hours ago, evil_bryan said:

In addition, I changed the weight of paint score in the calculation for Best Overall.

  • Best Overall = 40% Sports, 25% Painting, 30% Spirit, and 5% Captain Achievements

 

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9 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

No.  I thought they were not weighted enough.  The fun time goals werent either.  It was a painting contest.  You could max out EVERY other score...  and be in the bottom because paint was THAT weighted.  This was a major issue to me and really should have been to anyone.  Sportsmanship and fun time stuff should have been given far more weight.  I can perhaps find those ludicrous numbers because I just couldnt fathom it.

Oh you're right. I dug it up out of curiosity. They got the math wrong and intended to double some component of the sportsmanship scoring. Not sure if it was the opponent review rubric, or the favorite opponent pin, but you're right it wasn't weighted as heavily as intended.

Still, an oopsie 2 years ago is a weird reason to continue to discourage non-top-level painters from attending an event that they may well enjoy.

Painting was not our team focus this year as we had 2 OFCC first timers. The message we gave them was that of, "just get your [big bad swear word] painted so you're ready to go, but being a cool dude is the most important part." They picked up 3 and 2 favorite opponent pins, respectively, and they were why we brought home the Marshall Johnson. Both players were excited to come again next year.

It's worth considering that you are potentially talking people out of a weekend that may well change their gaming career forever. I know my first OFCC nearly a decade ago did that for me. 

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If it is an event where you don't care about winning, why care if your painting isn't good.  I have yet to go to 40k OFCC with a completely painted army.  I don't give a [big bad swear word] about winning anything except best sports.  I couldn't care less.   

 

LH, you remain inscrutable. 

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