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evil_bryan

5 reasons why list rating does not work, #4 will shock you!

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Great points all around. I love the discussion. The event is amazing. Hell, I travel across the damn country to play these games and enjoy myself. Scoring or not, best general or not, list rating or not, it's all good. The point is the atmosphere. The point is the pints. The point is the smiles and the laughs. The point is playing five games of 40k that are unlike any 5 games of 40k that you can get ANYWHERE else. If you don't want to show up cuz for whatever reason, because scoring upsets you, or you want to bring a power list and that's out of the spirit of OFCC, then please, DON'T show up. That's why it's a club even, that's why people can be asked not to return. People that show up with the wrong attitude, are WORSE than those people not showing up at all.

Thank you for all your hard work Evil_Bryan, keep it up, this was a fantastic event. The paining I felt was much more fair this year. Team D has never been amazing painters, but now we didnt get bottom scores again, and we actually TRIED to paint well. We're not artists, but we were recognized for our efforts, and what we did, instead of being told "you're not Chappy, get out" (no shade being thrown at Chappy, quite the opposite, the man is a wizard with a paintbrush). I was 100% satisfied with the event.

On the topic of stuff like all knight lists, and extreme teams. Knights are fine. They just take certain tools to kill. If no one on your team has those tools, it means an automatic bad matchup. Same with skewed team comps. Taking all of one thing will almost guarantee at least one bad match-up each round. Bringing a variety of TYPES of lists, with different strengths and weaknesses is the way to go. Team Diversity's rule is that we always bring four different factions each year, never double up. It ensures that we almost always have a good match-up for every player (almost, nothing's foolproof).

Again, thanks for the great discussions, and Lord H, keep being an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, shrouded in a waffle my dude. 🙂

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6 hours ago, Xavier319 said:

So are a lot of things. EVERYTHING has a codex or index, and most of them have stratagems, and yet some things and combinations are still considered "inappropriate" for OFCC. These kind of responses are unhelpful and dismissive, try to keep them to a minimum.

No, it’s simple.  It’s a part of the game now.  It’s whole complete faction.  You know exactly what I meant, ofcourse everything  has a codex, but what I was referring to is it’s an entire faction your asking if it should be allowed. Not a single model that’s “unfair”.  

So yes it was dismissive but it was a ridiculous point to even bring up.    Try to keep pointless discussions to a minimum mmk? 😝 (kidding with ya 😉)

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6 hours ago, Xavier319 said:

So are a lot of things. EVERYTHING has a codex or index, and most of them have stratagems, and yet some things and combinations are still considered "inappropriate" for OFCC. These kind of responses are unhelpful and dismissive, try to keep them to a minimum.

Also my buddy’s Will with the knight list is one of the friendliest guys to play and his team even won best sportsmanship.  Like you stated in your longer post, it’s about attitude of the player.  I don’t care if I’m get stomped if we are both having a good time. 

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12 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Also my buddy’s Will with the knight list is one of the friendliest guys to play and his team even won best sportsmanship.  Like you stated in your longer post, it’s about attitude of the player.  I don’t care if I’m get stomped if we are both having a good time. 

Literally in this case 😝

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

No, it’s simple.  It’s a part of the game now.  It’s whole complete faction.  You know exactly what I meant, ofcourse everything  has a codex, but what I was referring to is it’s an entire faction your asking if it should be allowed. Not a single model that’s “unfair”.  

So yes it was dismissive but it was a ridiculous point to even bring up.    

I wouldn't have brought it up if it was a ridiculous point to bring up. As I said, you are still green behind the gills.

Knights have had their own codex since 7th Ed. I believe this is the 3rd OFCC with Knights being a "whole complete faction."  I've gotten in multiple, many page long discussions with LH and others about the disservice to the game that I feel disallowing armies does.

I've also seen what I perceive to be the deliberate gaming of the List Rating Committee Guidelines in the past, so I'm admittedly jaded when it comes to requesting LRC return.

I want to bring a Warhound to OFCC. Is it OP? Probably, but that's not why I want to bring it. I also don't want to bring it and only face Tank Companies/Dark lance spam.  

There are clubs that show up with best general in mind every year, it seems.  There are also the same handful of clubs that routinely score in the bottom half, like every year.  It makes you wonder why that is.

Speaking of, I didn't see DMB/DMB2 on the scoresheet....did they not come this year?

 

Back to the Spirit of the Event, and lists. It is an invitational. Well, more of an uninvitational.  Combined with Captain application, and most captains being returning players, the majority understand what is being aimed for, and have handled the job of the LRC at home. Cory risked getting a stern talking to for letting SugKnight play. If Sug hadn't been the stand up light hearted guy being described, this thread would be different, and VV would've gotten a sheit storm of "WTF were you thinking?!" 

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20 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Speaking of, I didn't see DMB/DMB2 on the scoresheet....did they not come this year?

Last year's winning DMB team lost two of its members to (I believe) job relocation/changes and the remaining two couldn't find replacements, as due to the scheduling of this year's OFCC, the following Monday/Tuesday would have been the first day of school at the University of Idaho. A lot of the old DMB crew has either moved on or was not available either. Fortunately, one of the members (petant) did attend the event and was able to bring the cannon back with him.

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3 hours ago, happycamper said:

Also my buddy’s Will with the knight list is one of the friendliest guys to play and his team even won best sportsmanship.  Like you stated in your longer post, it’s about attitude of the player.  I don’t care if I’m get stomped if we are both having a good time. 

You're side stepping the issue.  Great guys playing lists that arent fun still means we all have to play an unfun list. Avoiding  THIS was at the core of OFCC.  THIS is why list ratings are good.

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On 8/31/2018 at 5:02 PM, PourSpelur said:

All your points were great but this is the one I'll disagree with. Medium to softer is where we should be shooting for. Always gonna be those that push the boundary. If we all draw the line at medium, the outliers will only end up in the "solid" bracket. If you say the line is at solid, the outliers will have "face melting tourney winner" lists.

I fully agree the onus should be on captains and their team instead of a committee though. Seemed to work pretty well this year with still policing.

(Also, it's super easy for me to push more responsibility to the Cap'n because I'm not a captain!)

😉

What was meant, is that three soft/medium lists and one 4 out of 5 list is fine. I agree face melting is not ok (a 5 list) but a single 4 should be ok in a team of 4. Even a 4 rated list has difficulties (horde, tanks, etc). A team bringing all 4 rated lists would be unacceptable. That's what was meant. The main thing is each captain has different options on what's a 4, what's a 3, etc. Overall, I still felt this year was just fine and delegating to captains is a scalable way to go.

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Personally I always hated the all 1s and 2s teams. Seriously how hard is it to bring something with the tools to actually play the game? We do our darndest to drop the hardness but our local meta is super balanced take all comers with a spike towards competitive. Getting a full squad of what would amount to 4s down to 3s is hard enough we don't want to paint stuff that never gets used on an army scale but painting that one unit that drops it down is totally acceptable. 

 

I've always liked the this is my traveling list to play even that guy but I've swapped out competitive unit x for my loved unit y that just doesn't make the cut. If I pull a team of look at my silly stuff that is barely paint legal I feel it is as bad as highly rated barely painted. The goal is cross balance so all outliers up or down is a problem. 

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As a Captain, I've had more trouble with matchups caused by under-powered Armies than over-powered ones. There's usually someone who's up for a serious challenge, but "We don't have anyone who won't roflstomp that list" is harder. Even more so when it's a whole team like that.

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3 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

Personally I always hated the all 1s and 2s teams. Seriously how hard is it to bring something with the tools to actually play the game? We do our darndest to drop the hardness but our local meta is super balanced take all comers with a spike towards competitive. Getting a full squad of what would amount to 4s down to 3s is hard enough we don't want to paint stuff that never gets used on an army scale but painting that one unit that drops it down is totally acceptable. 

 

I've always liked the this is my traveling list to play even that guy but I've swapped out competitive unit x for my loved unit y that just doesn't make the cut. If I pull a team of look at my silly stuff that is barely paint legal I feel it is as bad as highly rated barely painted. The goal is cross balance so all outliers up or down is a problem. 

We played the game just fine with 1's and 2's, remember? 🙂  

I'm just such a big fan of what OFCC says it's about.  I really am glad the scoring got fixed.  I just hope they will reconsider the list issue.

or not.

 

 

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2 hours ago, WestRider said:

As a Captain, I've had more trouble with matchups caused by under-powered Armies than over-powered ones. There's usually someone who's up for a serious challenge, but "We don't have anyone who won't roflstomp that list" is harder. Even more so when it's a whole team like that.

Tone your list down?  I know, right?

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Rating lists became a thankless part time job for those on the LRC.  To be blunt they have lives and families. They have better ways to spend their time.

I support the direction Bryan took and will continue to support it.

We are adults, not children.  We know what OFCC about. 

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42 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

@happycamper, do you understand why I asked how the Knight list was received? 🤣😂😭

I played the 4 knight list, and it was my second favorite match of the whole weekend. It was almost my favorite opponent pin. Had a great time socializing, playing, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

I played the 4 knight list, and it was my second favorite match of the whole weekend. It was almost my favorite opponent pin. Had a great time socializing, playing, etc.

I actually played both that one and the 3 Knight list. Both very fun games, great opponents, great-looking Armies.

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Is there any way we can get a score on whining? Because then I'll have something I might be able to win. Or maybe just an award for best whiner?

But seriously, I don't know how you would get a good set of list raters with this edition of 40K. The immense knowledge of every faction and every strategem....no thank you. Hell, the sheer scope of it kept me from even trying to be a ringer this year. I was afraid my ignorance would cause my opponent to have a bad game. There was a time when there were no teams and no captains, and you needed the list rating in order to match people up. But now that the current system is in place, and the captains are doing their job, it seems its working.

And there is nothing wrong with people not liking the OFCC. From the start it was not for everyone. There are plenty of players out there that really wanted it to be a tournament, and kudos to the HOGs and Senators that have kept it an Event. LH has decided it isn't for him. There is nothing wrong with that. Seems to me there were plenty of people there that enjoyed the way it is.

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5 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

And there is nothing wrong with people not liking the OFCC. From the start it was not for everyone. There are plenty of players out there that really wanted it to be a tournament, and kudos to the HOGs and Senators that have kept it an Event. LH has decided it isn't for him. There is nothing wrong with that. Seems to me there were plenty of people there that enjoyed the way it is.

I've got no issue with people realizing it isn't for them. Better that then trying to twist it into something else. 

I do, however, have an issue with people actively discouraging new players not to go for reasons that don't even make sense. The event is struggling to get high enough attendance to numbers to justify the amazing venue we've been enjoying. We don't need sour grape campaigns actively undermining it. 

If it's not for you (not you, Bro G), don't go. Don't assume it's not for someone else too and tell them not to go either.

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11 minutes ago, Munkie said:

If it's not for you (not you, Bro G), don't go. Don't assume it's not for someone else too and tell them not to go either.

This. I'm not a huge fan of ITC, but I would never tell someone who was thinking of going to an ITC event "Don't bother going; there's no way you can enjoy yourself, unless you are a world class general."

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I definitely had to campaign a bit to build my team this year but I stuck to it emphasized event not tournament and that you have to experience it before you can truly compete overall. 

I feel super successful as the whole team is already talking about next year and now they get it, not to mention the Marshall Johnson. The ofcc celebrates many aspects all at once in a team/ club format. We will be doing more spirit wise now that the typical tournament focus has been truly lifted. Some on the team wanted to believe this unicorn I was selling existed but were sceptical, they have been made believers thank you for the assist ordo!

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1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

I definitely had to campaign a bit to build my team this year but I stuck to it emphasized event not tournament and that you have to experience it before you can truly compete overall. 

I feel super successful as the whole team is already talking about next year and now they get it, not to mention the Marshall Johnson. The ofcc celebrates many aspects all at once in a team/ club format. We will be doing more spirit wise now that the typical tournament focus has been truly lifted. Some on the team wanted to believe this unicorn I was selling existed but were sceptical, they have been made believers thank you for the assist ordo!

Congratulations on your quest to "free"OFCC generals to be completely uninhibited in their list as long as they can shame their captain into allowing it.  Congrats man.  Your unicorn is just dead sexy.  Lol

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1 hour ago, Munkie said:

I've got no issue with people realizing it isn't for them. Better that then trying to twist it into something else. 

I do, however, have an issue with people actively discouraging new players not to go for reasons that don't even make sense. The event is struggling to get high enough attendance to numbers to justify the amazing venue we've been enjoying. We don't need sour grape campaigns actively undermining it. 

If it's not for you (not you, Bro G), don't go. Don't assume it's not for someone else too and tell them not to go either.

This times a million.  Activity telling people not to go hurts the club, the event, etc... can’t help but take it a bit personal when someone is undermining the event to get people not to go simply because of a warped view on of all things “painting score”?! Caring how something is scored while at the same time wanting a non competitive event is just backwards thinking.  

Sorry to come out aggressive in this but it really pisses me off.  Don’t enjoy it, fine don’t go nothing wrong with that at all, it’s not for everyone.  But actively sabotaging it by discouraging people from going is just hurtful to the club and the community 

(not aimed at you munkie lol)

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