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Ish

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3 hours ago, paxmiles said:

As an aside, when compared to TAU stuff, I think the Repulsor is both insanely cheap AND should not be a dedicated transport (very close to being a lord of war).

Its 250-300 points for essentially a bunch of heavy bolters and a not needed transport capacity. Making it a LoW would make it absolutely useless as it would eat a detachment. 

It's pretty alright when given rerolls. It actually good when parked next to Bobby G.

But yea, marines struggle to do... anything. Scouts tend to get the job done better in almost every way. But then your playing scouts and moving further away from what you want to do. With marines your best just taking what you like and just rolling dice.

On hellblasters, the only way I've gotten them to work is with deathwatch, deepstriking them with a captain and getting the rerolls. That way they get 1 very accurate turn of shooting before you remove them.

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5 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Its 250-300 points for essentially a bunch of heavy bolters and a not needed transport capacity. Making it a LoW would make it absolutely useless as it would eat a detachment. 

It's pretty alright when given rerolls. It actually good when parked next to Bobby G.

But yea, marines struggle to do... anything. Scouts tend to get the job done better in almost every way. But then your playing scouts and moving further away from what you want to do. With marines your best just taking what you like and just rolling dice.

On hellblasters, the only way I've gotten them to work is with deathwatch, deepstriking them with a captain and getting the rerolls. That way they get 1 very accurate turn of shooting before you remove them.

Oh, I agree, it would be a huge disadvantage for it to be a LoW. For TAU, it would still be worth taking. But TAU is mainly glass cannons, and this is not a glass cannon, which makes it very appealing. Definitely a bias there. TAU also have a pretty large shortage of LoW options, while the IMPERIUM has lots, so it's kinda a supply and demand appeal too.

Anyway:

+ Dedicated Transport +

Repulsor [16 PL, 299pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Las-talon, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [16 PL, 299pts] ++

 

At ~300pts, it has 16 wounds, is T8, isn't TITANIC, has FLY, a 3+ save, BS 3+ AND ignores the move and shoot penalty for heavy weapons, 4x lascannons (or equivalents), has 5d6 bolter shots (fragstorm launchers), another 2 Krakstorm Grenade launcher shots, and on top of all that, it has a penalty for enemy units that charge it. And then it's also a transport.

By comparison to our Codex lord of war option (Stormsurge), at +30pts, it has only 4 wounds more, same saves, 1 less point of toughness, lacks FLY, is TITANIC, has BS 4+, has ranged anti-tank weapons only marginally better than 4x lascannons and 2x krakstorm Grenades, has slightly stronger bolter shots of about the same volume, and isn't a transport. Oh, and it has 4x 1-shot missiles that amazingly deal mortal wounds, but require the support of additional units in order to hit the target on anything other than 6s.

Your dedicated transport actually sounds like a better lord of war than our lord of war...

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You’re making the mistake of comparing things across codices. That’s not how GW designs the game, a unit must be considered in relation to other units from its own faction. Something that is incredibly useful for Orks, because they have nothing like it, can be a “meh” option for, say, Chaos Marines because they have other stuff that does it better.

Imagine giving a Imperial Guard a unit where every single model had M14, BS3+, 24” rapid fire 2 4/0/1 guns, and two WS3+ S4 attacks! And a 3+ Save! They’d trip over themselves to get a ‘em. Meanwhile, most Chaos Space Marine players consider Bikers to be kinda “meh.”

To sum up: the Repulsor is an assault transport that can't carry efficient assault troops, a skimmer that's too slow to maneuver in any way worth mentioning, a quasi-heavy-tank with less armor than a Chimera, but with enough firepower to take out an entire enemy Platoon in one shooting phase.

It’s not good at what you want a Dedicated Transport to do, packs so many guns it’s a guaranteed fire magnet, but is too weak to stand up to the incoming fire... 

If not for the stupid Primaris restrictions, I could get a Rhino and a Predator, for less, to do the jobs and do it better. Alternatively, if I really wanted one vehicle to do both jobs, I could get a Land Raider and it’d still be better since it actually can stand up against the attention it attracts as fire magnet.

Y’know, honestly, I think I’m going to skip the Repulsor entirely just because I’m mad at it. 

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The Assault variant for the Hellblasters is -6" of range and -1S over the rapid fire version. So you give up 6" of range that you will then have to make up with by rolling a 6 when you advance. Over a 30" move from 30" to 15":

24"-30": 1 Rapid Fire shot, full BS    0 Assault shots 

24"-18": 1 rapid fire shot, full BS,     2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

18"-15": 1 Rapid Fire shot, full BS    2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

>15": 2 Rapid Fire shots, full BS,      2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

You'll get one extra shot with the assault version of the guns while advancing, and hoping you roll 6" for that advance. All those shots will be at -1 BS and -1 S. To me, Hellblaster squads, it's not worth it upgrading (paying points) for assault weapons that have range, BS, and S penalties just so you can move an extra d6" and shoot. Plus, as you move closer to the enemy, it allows them to get into close combat with you, and these guys are not a close combat unit. 

YMMV, so take the assault version and see if they are worth it for your playstyle and army. I'd love to hear actual results instead of theory and math hammer! 

As an aside, last week, my Gravis Captain had no problem getting into my opponent's deployment zone by turn five, even after not moving for a turn and flighting in multiple close combats. The captain has 12" pistol 3, so that's 6 pistol shots and 5 powerfist attacks in melee (I kept forgetting the pistol shots...). 

@paxmiles Can't believe you are actually comparing Tau stuff to Space Marine stuff. LOL Apples and Oranges! 

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I’ve run the numbers, the best Hellblaster weapon for general purposes is the standard Rapid Fire Plasma Incinerator.

The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is the second best, but, you have to treat the unit as sort of a “light lascannon” Devastator Squad. 

The Assault Plasma Incinerator is only of real use for Black Templars and Salamanders.

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22 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

 

@paxmiles Can't believe you are actually comparing Tau stuff to Space Marine stuff. LOL Apples and Oranges! 

I'm just in TAU mode because of my army, and having trouble getting off track with that. Definitely apples and oranges. Yes, definitely lol.

I do think that the Repulsor would make a wonderful "super" hammerhead option for the TAU. A T8 hammerhead that could hold infantry would be amazing. And that -2" to enemy charges is so TAU...

15 minutes ago, Ish said:

I’ve run the numbers, the best Hellblaster weapon for general purposes is the standard Rapid Fire Plasma Incinerator.

The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is the second best, but, you have to treat the unit as sort of a “light lascannon” Devastator Squad. 

The Assault Plasma Incinerator is only of real use for Black Templars and Salamanders.

Oh, yeah, I agree, it's a worse weapon. That said, your stated issue is that they don't move fast enough. Are your willing to take a nerf on their weapons to move faster?

Have you run the numbers of not shooting for a few turns because your hellblasters are in a transport, averaged over the entire game, versus being able to shoot every turn with assault plasma? Putting them inside of a transport (that they can't shoot out of) is a substantial nerf to their shooting.

Plus, if your opponent surrounds the transport, they can't get out...And you can't disembark after the vehicle moves, so even with FLY to fall back, they can't get out on the same turn.

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It’s not the Hellblasters that I want to transport, I’m perfectly happy with having a demi-squad or two of them standing in my deployment zone and taking long range shots at enemy armor.

I want a battle taxi for my Intercessors. So they can move up and hold territory that my Aggressors/Inceptors/Reivers have cleared out.

Since that doesn’t seem do-able, I’m going to just say to heck with it, and figure out the best way to maximize being a slower footsloggin’ army. 

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3 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Kinda seems like the issue is that you want the weaponry of a stationary army, but you also want them to be highly mobile...

Well, I mean, don’t we all? 

I want a body like Chris Hemsworth, but I also want to eat like Chris Farley. 

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30 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

The Assault variant for the Hellblasters is -6" of range and -1S over the rapid fire version. So you give up 6" of range that you will then have to make up with by rolling a 6 when you advance. Over a 30" move from 30" to 15":

24"-30": 1 Rapid Fire shot, full BS    0 Assault shots 

24"-18": 1 rapid fire shot, full BS,     2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

18"-15": 1 Rapid Fire shot, full BS    2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

>15": 2 Rapid Fire shots, full BS,      2 Assault shots, -1 BS with an advance

For clarity, Rapid Fire Weapons can't shoot at all if you advance. OP is concerned about speed for the unit (getting it to objectives).

I agree, if speed is not the goal, Rapid Fire is better than assault.

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25 minutes ago, Ish said:

It’s not the Hellblasters that I want to transport, I’m perfectly happy with having a demi-squad or two of them standing in my deployment zone and taking long range shots at enemy armor.

I want a battle taxi for my Intercessors. So they can move up and hold territory that my Aggressors/Inceptors/Reivers have cleared out.

Since that doesn’t seem do-able, I’m going to just say to heck with it, and figure out the best way to maximize being a slower footsloggin’ army. 

My point is that the repulsor isn't substancially any faster than advancing every turn with Intercessors (or Hellblasters). So you could sacrifice shooting of the intercessors for a few turns to embark them in a 250+ point transport, or you could advance them every turn and shoot with nerfed weapons and at a penalty to hit.

Or you could keep to the normal move and take rapid fire intercessors that don't advance. They'll have trouble getting places, but they won't lack for weaponry.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just giving you potential solutions to your issue of not having enough speed (and solving it in the context of your stance of not being willing to field non-primaris units).

 

As mentioned before, if you do go the Advancing Route, taking a Primaris Librarian would allow more reliable advances.

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The point of a battle taxi isn’t just speed. It’s a combination of speed and armor.

If it takes two turns for an APC to get to a point where it disgorges it’s cargo and that cargo could have walked the same distance in two turns but the APC could take hits and stay alive that would have killed some of the walking men, then the APC has done its job.

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At the dawn of 8th edition, it was postulated that the best Space Marine army was a mix of old and new stuff. So two units of Intersessors walking up the board, supported by two Tactical Squads in a Razorback, and the five man squad is maxed out with special weapons. The Razorback has TLLC. Throw in Bobby G with Hellblasters as a support, and then whatever else you want. Stormravens were used as support too. Then Stormravens/Stormtalons became all the rage, then nerfs to all that, etc. etc. 

Right now, a pure Primaris force is at a severe disadvantage. It just does not have the proper units to make them worthwhile. They lack some kind fo cheap transport like a Rhino, they lack a dedicated close combat unit, and they are lacking in squad options. An Intersessor Squad needs the melta/plasma/flamer special weapon that Tactical Squads have access to. They should at least be able to take a Hellblaster Plasma. You'll have to go with good old plain Jane Space Marines in a combined arms force. The upside: It's not an extra detachment (unless you want to make it one). The downside: not all Primaris models.  

Rumor has it that sometime this spring, a Primaris Codex will drop with some new units in it. I hope for a cheap transport and dedicated close combat unit. Even if it's only bolt pistols and chainswords, I'd be happy. Reavers just don't cut it (did you see what I did there?). Or Reviers could cut it if they got access to power swords, p-fists, flamers, combat shields,  etc. etc. It would not bother me at all if Primaris basically received all the Space Marine toys, but "Supersized". The Space Marines are dead. All hail the Space Marines! 

 

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4 hours ago, Ish said:

I know I’m handicapping myself by going purely Primaris... But, frankly, I kinda see it as “future proofing” as well.

I don't see anything wrong with that logic. And I'm hardly opposed to thematic lists.

4 hours ago, Ish said:

The point of a battle taxi isn’t just speed. It’s a combination of speed and armor.

If it takes two turns for an APC to get to a point where it disgorges it’s cargo and that cargo could have walked the same distance in two turns but the APC could take hits and stay alive that would have killed some of the walking men, then the APC has done its job.

Sake of arguement, if the goal is speed AND them staying alive, and the advancing marines have the same speed as the transport you refuse field, you could always look into a decoy unit that runs ahead of the Intercessors. If the decoy presents as a more imediate threat, they will probably destroy it before they destroy your foot sloggers. 

In my list, that was the Piranhas.

Not sure which Primaris unit is the best decoy, but I'd lean on those Dreadnoughts. 9-14" advance and they are definitely something I can't afford to ignore. Put two of those in front, and I'd have to destroy those before I could afford to touch your intercessors. Spendy decoy unit, and certainly worse than the tank in this role, but you said you refuse to field the tank and refuse non-primaris, so it's probably the best fast unit you have that could fill this role. 

And if I ignore the advancing dreads, that works out well for you too....

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I think, at this juncture, I'll just focus on building up the infantry assets of my Company. Maybe in a year or two when that's all done, GW will have either released a new Primaris transport, relented on allowing Primaris Marines to use RhinoBacks, or the third-party conversion bitz market will have developed ways for me to de-fugly the Repulsor.

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++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [60 PL, 997pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists

Specialist Detachment: Indomitus Crusaders (-1 CP)

+ HQ +

Primaris Librarian [7 PL, 101pts]: Force sword, Reliquary of Gathalamor, Storm of Fire, Warlord

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 180pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, 9x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant, Veteran Intercessors (-1 CP)

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 180pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, 9x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant, Veteran Intercessors (-1 CP)

Scout Squad [10 PL, 140pts]: 10x Camo cloak
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 9x Scout w/Boltgun

+ Elites +

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 157pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Heavy flamer, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [60 PL, 997pts] ++

 

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mpinue0e4jqz.jpg

++ Battalion Detachment I +5CP [43 PL, 730pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists

+ HQ +
Primaris Captain w/Power Fist (Warlord): Plasma Pistol, Power Fist, Trait: Storm of Fire, Relic: The Armour Indomitus [ 92 pts ]
Primaris Librarian: Veil of Time, Null Zone; Bolt Pistol, Force Sword [ 101 pts ]

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad Alfa: 10x Bolt rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Power Fist [ 179 Points ]
Intercessor Squad Bravo: 10x Bolt rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Power Fist [ 179 Points ]
Intercessor Squad Charlie: 10x Bolt rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Power Fist [ 179 Points ]

++ Battalion Detachment II +5CP [62 PL, 1060pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists

+ HQ +
Techmarine: Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Servo-Arm [ 55 pts ]
Primaris Lieutenants [ 149 pts ]
 ∙ Primaris Lieutenant A: Power Sword
 ∙ Primaris Lieutenant B: Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle

+ Troops +
Intercessor Squad Delta: 5x Stalker Bolt Rifles, 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Chainsword [ 85 pts ]
Intercessor Squad Echo: 5x Stalker Bolt Rifles, 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher; Sergeant w/ Chainsword [ 85 pts ]
Intercessor Squad Foxtrot: 10x Auto Bolt Rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launchers; Sergeant w/ Power fist [ 189 pts ]
 
+ Elites +
Redemptor Dreadnought A: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [ 161 pts ]
Redemptor Dreadnought A: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [ 161 pts ]

+ Heavy Support +
Hellblaster Squad: 5x Heavy Plasma Incinerator [ 175 pts ]

++ Fortification Network (Imperium - Space Marines) [9 PL, 210pts] ++

+ Fortification +
Imperial Bunker: Quad-Qun [ 130 pts ]
Imperial Defence Line: 2x Trench Sections, 2x End Sections [ 80 pts ]

++ Total: [114 PL, 2000pts] ++

Basic "Anvil and Hammer" strategy...
The Hellblasters, Primaris Lieutenant B, and the Captain all huddle up in the Imperial Bunker, they're the "anvil". 
Intercessor Squads Alfa and Bravo each deploy in one of the two Defence Line sections, with Intercessor Squads Delta and Echo behind them. 
Both Redemptor Dreadnaughts, the Techmarine, and Intercessor Squad Foxtrot are my "hammer," taking the fight to the enemy. 
Intercessor Squad Charlie and the Librarian are my "flex" squads, going where-ever I think they'll be most needed.

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The Stormtalon is probably the only thing in the model range more fugly than the Repulsor! I like the looks of the Stormhawk Interceptor a lot more and will probably add one to my collection someday... I do like aircraft, not quite as much as tanks, but, y'know.

The Dark Angels' Nephillim Jetfighter is also a gorgeous bit of kit, I'm willing to bet that I could use it as the basis for Stormtalon and Stormhawk conversions. They're all about the same size (the Nephy has a larger wingspan) so the biggest difference is just the weaponry. 

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1 hour ago, Ish said:


Intercessor Squad Foxtrot: 10x Auto Bolt Rifles, 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launchers; Sergeant w/ Power fist [ 189 pts ]

In the interest of saving points, can the Auxiliary Grenade Launchers shoot while advancing? If not, probably wise to drop them from this particular unit. I'm only assuming that you actually pay points for them...

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