Astra Militarum Wave of Humanity list

[Guest]

Every weapon destroyed is -1 on the firing roll. Fires on a 4+, can't fire on a turn it moved or first turn.

Is it worded as first game turn or first turn? Old deathstrike was first turn, so it could be fired turn 1 provided that you went second, as per the BRB in 6th.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Says game. Also unless noted otherwise you are refering to a 5th ed dex to a 6th ed game.

[Guest]

Says game. Also unless noted otherwise you are refering to a 5th ed dex to a 6th ed game.

True, but it wasn't FAQed. It's reasonably fair to argue that if it isn't altered in an FAQ, it's supposed to be there. A bit fishy, but it didn't come up as an issue given the very poor performance of my deathstrike. I'll also note that even with that twist of words, it still only fired on 6s, so I rarely had it even fire turn 1 and all games which included it were games I informed my opponent very clearly of what it could do. So, really, it kills 1-5 models and sometimes glances vehicles or wounds MCs - they spread out and activate defensive buffs.

 

I do have a question for abuse puppy. If S10, AP1, 10" barrages which ignore cover are in normal play, do you retain your stance on the hellhammer/stormsword being unreasonable for normal play?

[generalripphook]

True, but it wasn't FAQed. It's reasonably fair to argue that if it isn't altered in an FAQ, it's supposed to be there. A bit fishy, but it didn't come up as an issue given the very poor performance of my deathstrike. I'll also note that even with that twist of words, it still only fired on 6s, so I rarely had it even fire turn 1 and all games which included it were games I informed my opponent very clearly of what it could do. So, really, it kills 1-5 models and sometimes glances vehicles or wounds MCs - they spread out and activate defensive buffs.

 

I do have a question for abuse puppy. If S10, AP1, 10" barrages which ignore cover are in normal play, do you retain your stance on the hellhammer/stormsword being unreasonable for normal play?

 

Yeah if your helhound/stormlord is av 12, 3 hp, one shot, cant fire first turn and only fires on a +4. Oh and cant move and fire.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Yeah not comparable. Also general you forgot it is a one shot gun.

[Guest]

Yeah if your helhound/stormlord is av 12, 3 hp, one shot, cant fire first turn and only fires on a +4. Oh and cant move and fire.

well, my "hellhound" is AV12 and 3hp, but I was referring to the hellhammer and stormsword.

 

As for the hellhammer/stormsword, neither are barrage weapons and both have a meager 36" of range. The Hellhammer is also only a 7" blast.

 

As for moving and firing, why are you moving the deathstrike prior to firing it? Doesn't it have near unlimited range? It doesn't need TLOS either.

 

As for model costs, the base cost on a hellhammer is 540pts. The Stormsword is 485pts. The base cost of 3x deathstrikes is 480pts.

 

Deathstrikes are cheaper, don't have to move into range to fire, don't need TLOS, and don't require me to dedicate ~500pts into a single target for my enemy to focus on.

 

Anyway, the two super heavies are quite comparable to the deathstrike. My question relates to an earlier conversation with abuse puppy where he said that S10 ap1 ignores cover with a 10" blast would be horribly broken in normal 40k. It was on his list of reasons to keep escalation out of normal 40k.

[generalripphook]

Yeah not comparable. Also general you forgot it is a one shot gun.

I said av 12, 3 hp, one shot....

[generalripphook]

And s 10 ap 1 ignore cover 10" blast is pretty horribly broken on a unit that can shoot every turn, with heavy armor and a fair amount of hit points. A deathstrike is unreliable and is much much much easier to kill.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

His main argument was to disclude anything that ignored saves and removed models like d weapons and he felt str 10.ap 1 ignore cover were not fun either. Deathstrikes don't ignore invulnerable saves. Again his issue was not all the choices of escalation but a select few.

 

Almost any army can remove deathstrike on turn 1. Not many armies can remove a super heavy in one baneblade a turn. Many of the baneblade variants are balanced and fun.

[Lord Hanaur]

I think that bone picking aside here, the Deathstrike is one shot and rather random and limited in comparison to other notable comparables. 

 

Its value is obviously good enough to get them into the list and they still do compete with other things that are equally attractive for different reasons.  The Heavy slot is teeming with good choices. 

 

I do see why a Scion codex on its own was a good idea as well.  I feel like the Astra Militarum elite slot got a lot stronger and a themed army for them was in order to keep them valuable.  It's really a cool idea and a super large number of special weapons.  I mean consider that you get like 8 special weapons per slot as it stands, plus all the Hot Shot Lasguns/Laspistols that can First Rank Fire! Second Rank fire!  This is not insignificant.  Even at STR 3, 3 shots a dude like that in ADDITION to all those special weapons?  oofta.  It's pretty impressive.  They travel in convoys, get out and start firing.  Add to that the actual Taurox firepower and its really a nice board sector full of fire power coming at you.

 

Has anyone developed a list for that?

[AbusePuppy]

I do have a question for abuse puppy. If S10, AP1, 10" barrages which ignore cover are in normal play, do you retain your stance on the hellhammer/stormsword being unreasonable for normal play?

The lack of barrage on the Stormsword is pretty meaningless given it already ignores cover saves.

 

And, as others have pointed out, there is a slight discrepancy in stats between a Deathstrike and a Stormsword. Is the Stormsword more expensive? Yup. But, as it turns out, I can buy one Stormsword for the price of three Deathstrikes- and chance are I'm going to get a LOT more shots with it, since it's not going to get vaporized before it can shoot, won't fail its 4+ on a critical turn, etc. Three Deathstrikes will get, at best, three shots on turn 2 (not even a 30% chance under ideal conditions, I will point out)- a Stormsword has already gotten two shots at that point and will probably see several more turns of shooting at the very least.

 

The Stormsword has as much HP, significantly improved armor values (the difference between AV12 and AV14 is pretty considerable, if you haven't noticed), a stronger secondary armament by a fair bit, and all of the halo advantages of being a superheavy- not to mention not taking all of your HS slots up.

 

They really aren't comparable in any meaningful way any more than a Harridan is comparable to a Harpy or a Knight is comparable to a Dreadnought.

[Lord Hanaur]

So anyone have any changes they might recommend?  I was pretty pleased with myself after crafting the list and having played with its slight variant before the new codex dropped.  I made thew one change somoene suggested.  any others?

[Guest]

So anyone have any changes they might recommend?  I was pretty pleased with myself after crafting the list and having played with its slight variant before the new codex dropped.  I made thew one change somoene suggested.  any others?

Looks pretty good. I'll be curious to hear battle reports on it, especially regarding the deathstrike. You might want to look into a solution to 2+ armor MCs, but it probably won't matter unless the opponent also has loads of other, similar threats.

 

 

The lack of barrage on the Stormsword is pretty meaningless given it already ignores cover saves.

 

And, as others have pointed out, there is a slight discrepancy in stats between a Deathstrike and a Stormsword. Is the Stormsword more expensive? Yup. But, as it turns out, I can buy one Stormsword for the price of three Deathstrikes- and chance are I'm going to get a LOT more shots with it, since it's not going to get vaporized before it can shoot, won't fail its 4+ on a critical turn, etc. Three Deathstrikes will get, at best, three shots on turn 2 (not even a 30% chance under ideal conditions, I will point out)- a Stormsword has already gotten two shots at that point and will probably see several more turns of shooting at the very least.

 

The Stormsword has as much HP, significantly improved armor values (the difference between AV12 and AV14 is pretty considerable, if you haven't noticed), a stronger secondary armament by a fair bit, and all of the halo advantages of being a superheavy- not to mention not taking all of your HS slots up.

 

They really aren't comparable in any meaningful way any more than a Harridan is comparable to a Harpy or a Knight is comparable to a Dreadnought.

 

Come now, you honestly think barrage is meaningless, but higher AV is very valuable? If I don't have to put a superheavy is TLOS to the enemy in order to shoot, AV becomes pretty meaningless. Remember that the missile doesn't really count for TLOS (loose wording), so it's pretty easy to hide that thing. I'd much rather an AV 12 front and side stormsword with barrage than the present one. Way more impressive. Not only can it hide, but it hits side arc instead of front. I do understand the limited shots feature, but my IG super heavies never last all game, I'm doubting that more than 3 turns of shooting is realistic for games 2k or lower.

 

As for the comparison, it is spot on. I'm comparing 9 hp of astra tank to 9 hp of astra tank. Both have the same general weapon, with slight variants.

 

That said, my main point is nothing to do with the medium of getting that weapon on the table, but in allowing it in normal play. You were the one advocating the brokenness of S10 ap1 ignores cover 10" blast. Now astra get's one in a heavy slot and you defend it. I find this amusing. I also find it amusing how you seem to have reworked your stance to both claim the old one is false and yet not admit it openly.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Super heavy hp are better than standard, because there is no lose of performance to super heavy getting penned.

[Fix]

I know nothing about the new deathstrike other than the above, but it mostly sounds weaker or as weak as than the old one. Old one was a 6-12" blast which ignored most of the targeting rules due to it's incredibly odd "short bus" special rules. Going off on 4+ sounds nice, as opposed to the old system, but I ran the old one and it rarely does much damage. Issue isn't about shooting requirements or scatter, it's about lack of viable targets. Typically, you won't have 160pts of enemy lined up in a manner that makes the deathstrike worthwhile. Don't know about the new one, but the old one can still only inflict a single wound on enemy model that it can't ID, so really, the ideal target doesn't really exist much in normal play.

 

That said, when I pick up the new astra book, I'll be fielding mine. The big missile makes me giggle and that's all I need for reasons to include this point deficit in my army.

 

Is there an option to like a post twice?  This is, and has always been, the exact right answer for Deathstriking.  You don't do it because it does.  You do it because they think it can.  It just can better now, so watch out!

[AbusePuppy]

I wonder what your parents were like, abused puppy...

 

You know what? I was gonna post some responses to your arguments here, but I'm not gonna bother. If you can't have a discussion without getting incredibly petty and throwing out ad hominem, I don't have any reason to give a damn about what you say.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Pax you are also comparing tanks that can fire at multiple targets, while deathstrike can't (yes 3 death strikes can fire at 3 different targets, but as others pointed out that it is a variable chance you will be able to).  Deathstrike might be very powerful when it goes off, but it has to go off, and there ALWAYS is time for your opponent to react to it.  Baneblade and the variants ALMOST ALWAYS  can get a turn of offensive actions bar drop pod melta, and you go second.  There is so much differences.  Str 10 ap 1 ignore cover is great and powerful, but as you pointed out in other posts blasts are adaptable with proper placement even a 10" pie can only do so much to a well placed formation, and secondly MCs will just laugh unless t5 and most t5 have an invulnerable. 

 

Back to oop Lord great list, I would like to see some bat reps before making too many alterations.

[savion47]

I am going to pop in and remind everyone to keep it civil please.