Torn between two lists

[AgentP]

Want some opinions on two potential daemon lists for OFCC.  Thoughts appreciated:

 

LIST 1

 

Keeper of Secrets, Lv4, Lore of Metal, Exalted Gift, Lesser Gift

 

Herald of Tzeentch, Lv 2, Lore of Tzeentch, BSB, Exalted Locus

Exalted Flamer

 

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

 

6 Screamers

5 Flamers

 

1 Burning Chariot

1 Burning Chariot

1 Soulgrinder of Tzeentch

 

LIST 2

 

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, wings, Lv4 Lore of Metal, Greater Gift, Lesser Gift

 

Herald of Tzeentch, Lv2, Lore of Tzeentch, Exalted Focus

Herald of Khorne, Exalted Focus, BSB, Lesser Gift

 

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

10 Pink Horrors, stnd

29 Bloodletters, mus, stnd

 

6 screamers

5 Flesh Hounds

 

1 Burning Chariot, blue horror crew

1 BUrning Chariot, blue horror crew

1 Skullcannon

1 Skullcannon

 

[Ring_of_Gyges]

I think I prefer the second one, despite the appealing mono-god purity of the first (assuming you meant Lord of Change for the Greater Daemon).

 

A big block of Bloodletters and a little unit of Flesh Hounds give your opponent something to fight in a way that the first list doesn't. Sure, they can kill lots of blocks of 10 Horrors but a majority of the points are tied up in flying and/or skirmishing units that might be frustrating to catch.

[HeroZero]

I like list one, with some tweaks, I'd like to see at least one unit of 24-30 horrors with FC and locus herald. I feel its much needed.

[AgentP]

Yes Stephen, I meant a Lord of Change.  And I tend to agree with you about the need to have a combat block of bloodletters.  The tzeentch list, while themed and mono-god, is a bit of an avoidance/gunline list.

[savion47]

I will tell you that my hoard o' bloodletters is a rather good unit.

[AgentP]

How many are in your hoard Shane?

[savion47]

39 and with a char.

[MexicanNinja]

My first question is this:

 

At what point does the rating comitty for OFCC lists state a list is an MSU?  What are the OFCC qualifications for an MSU army?

 

Depending on the answers to the above I could have better qaulifiable answers.  However, at this time, both lists are very MSU style.  Both lists have 11 units with the main difference being the multiple units of 10 horrors and the big block of blood letters.

[ratrek]

List one looks like a daemon gun line that's starting to crop up everywhere. Typically not as fun to play against.

[Brick Bungalow]

I'm a fluff monkey. I'll always recommend mono god. No matter what. 

[AgentP]

My first question is this:

 

At what point does the rating comitty for OFCC lists state a list is an MSU?  What are the OFCC qualifications for an MSU army?

 

Depending on the answers to the above I could have better qaulifiable answers.  However, at this time, both lists are very MSU style.  Both lists have 11 units with the main difference being the multiple units of 10 horrors and the big block of blood letters.

 

I can only give you my impression from the list ratings side of things.  Other's opinions may vary.  I think an important thing to remember before labeling something "MSU" is to look at fortitude.  Some armies have a tougher time getting fortitude, and what can seem MSU, is really just a way to get a decent number of fortitude points.  

 

So if I were look at list 2 for example,  I would note the Daemon prince (uncommon choice, less powerful), burning chariot (uncommon, less powerful), Fortitude 7 (reasonable), skull cannons (overpowered).  The list has no beast of Nurgle, no pleagebearers, no greater daemon, no plague flies, no furies, and no death magic, which are the internet's most loved units from the book.  So I would put this pretty middle of the road.

 

Again, those are just my opinions.  Which is why list rating is done by a group, with scores averaged.

[MexicanNinja]

The counter arguement could then be:

 

You have 11 units which need to be killed to a man with the possiblity of going back to full strength with double 1's, everything has a ward save, and you have 10 fear causing units and a terror causing units.

 

Yes, the Daemon DP is not nearly as good as the WoC DP; however, it's still a DP and can still do tremendous things.  It's not weak.  Unfortunately, 90% of the people I have met who play daemons think nurgle are the best.  While they are good, I don't think they are the best the book has to offer.  I think plague bearers are trash and aren't that much of a threat.  Beasts, on the other hand, are good but I have still seen them flop and they still die to shooting.

 

I believe that there needs to be a clear concise ruling on what is considered to be an MSU list.

 

Now, to counter argue myself.  Do I think either of the lists are OP, not in the slightest.  Do I think either of them would not be fun to play against, nope.  Would I consider them MSU, 100% yes.  Why?  Because you have 11 units in both armies and only 1 unit in either one of them is meant for frontale assaults.

[AgentP]

 Do I think either of the lists are OP, not in the slightest.  Do I think either of them would not be fun to play against, nope.  

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but this seems a bit extreme.  I don't see what about list 2 is particularly "un-fun"  It has back field shooting, fast screamers and hounds to engage deep field, and a big block unit with multiple chariots and the DP to engage mid field.  It meets the enemy across all spaces of the board.  It moves, it shoots, it magics, and it assaults.  I don't understand why you would find that list a problem to play.  You may well be right, I just need help seeing what you mean.

[MexicanNinja]

Um, I think you read my post wrong.  I said would either of them NOT be fun to play against.  I think they both would be fun to play against.  I have nothing against either of the lists, at all.  List one has a Keeper of Secrets and list two has daemon and blob of bloodletters.

 

I very much like both lists!  I could have worded the sentence better, my apologizes.

[AgentP]

Um, I think you read my post wrong.  I said would either of them NOT be fun to play against.  I think they both would be fun to play against.  I have nothing against either of the lists, at all.  List one has a Keeper of Secrets and list two has daemon and blob of bloodletters.

 

I very much like both lists!  I could have worded the sentence better, my apologizes.

 

Oh yes, my bad.  I missed the "not" in your post.  Kinda changes the meaning.  Sorry 'bout that.

[ratrek]

Um, I think you read my post wrong.  I said would either of them NOT be fun to play against.  I think they both would be fun to play against.  I have nothing against either of the lists, at all.  List one has a Keeper of Secrets and list two has daemon and blob of bloodletters.

 

I very much like both lists!  I could have worded the sentence better, my apologizes.

 

He said above that the Kipper is actually suppose to say Lord of Change

[MexicanNinja]

Keeper or Lord of Change....doesn't matter.  Both a greater daemon.  Both cast spells, one flies, one moves very fast and kills things faster in CC.

[AgentP]

Assume list #2.  5 hounds, or 3 bloodcrushers with a standard?  

[HeroZero]

Crushers.

[AgentP]

I'm thinking so too

[HeroZero]

Because it needs more CC threat, on unit of 30 letters can evaporate way too fast.