New Assassin rules from WD

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

It's different from scout snipers because assassins are a wild card. If you're up against a list that seems ill-suited for a vindicare -- POOF! now he's an eversor, or whatever you might want. You have to evaluate the utility of all four assassins at once against the utility of a unit that takes up a force org slot.

I meant in regards to Lyraeus' ork characters being vulnerable to character assassination weapons. 

Explain the "Poof" where the vindicare transforms into a different type of assassin? Nothing above (on the previous page) allows assassins to transform into other types of assassins. 

[Dusldorf]

The poof happens pre-game when you use the strat to add an assassin

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

The poof happens pre-game when you use the strat to add an assassin

Not much of a wild card, then. I mean, it might be a wild card if we played lots of games using the same lists, but for 1 on 1 random games, doesn't really change anything. You'll have the models you started the game with and I'll have the models I started the game with....

I am curious how they worded the stratagem requirements. Will we need a detachment of assassins to use the stratagems?

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Not really any different than scout snipers. That big mek has a weak profile and crappy stats. And this model being able to snipe characters isn't really changed much since it's index version.

Anyway, regarding why you'd care about the sniper's lost abilities. Used to be that the Vindicare could specifically kill off your nob in your ork boyz squad. That removed the main melee threat, and then the space marines with their good saves could beat you down in melee without risking ask much. 

Also Vindicare used to be able to destroy land raiders with a single shot...he's so much weaker than he was.

Uhhhh I still get my invul against scout snipers they still need a 3 to hit (not 2+) they wound on a 4+ (not 3+), they have no AP (instead of AP-2) and they deal 1 damage (instead of D3), oh and to kick it off, I get no invul, if the assassin fails to kill he gets chances to Mortal wound on a 3+,then a 4+,then a 5+, then a 6+.

Yea, scouts don't get that. At. All. 

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Not much of a wild card, then. I mean, it might be a wild card if we played lots of games using the same lists, but for 1 on 1 random games, doesn't really change anything. You'll have the models you started the game with and I'll have the models I started the game with....

I am curious how they worded the stratagem requirements. Will we need a detachment of assassins to use the stratagems?

The assassin stratagem states if your warlord has the imperium keyword then you may expend reinforcement points for an assassin at the cost of a single cp in matched play. I highly doubt these stratagems will require a detachment of oficio assassinorum. Just an imperial warlord. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Uhhhh I still get my invul against scout snipers they still need a 3 to hit (not 2+) they wound on a 4+ (not 3+), they have no AP (instead of AP-2) and they deal 1 damage (instead of D3), oh and to kick it off, I get no invul, if the assassin fails to kill he gets chances to Mortal wound on a 3+,then a 4+,then a 5+, then a 6+.

Yea, scouts don't get that. At. All. 

Scouts are certainly worse. That said, they can deny your invulnerable. On 6s to wound they deny your invulnerable by dealing an extra mortal wound. 

Regarding your big mek, you have 4 wounds on your model. Your save is a 4+ armor. Depending on Kultur, you might have a 6++. With outside sources, you could buff that to a 3+ armor (cover) and 5++ with KFF. But still 4 wounds. 

SM Scouts aren't exactly the pinacle of offensive snipers, but you could certainly buff their hit and wound rolls. Getting your big mek to die shouldn't exactly be hard with only 4 wounds and crappy saves (relatively speaking). With 10 sniper scouts, 6 hit, 3 wound and 1 of those deals an extra mortal wound. You save 1.5 of the saveable, and still end up taking 2.5 wounds. 2x squads of 10, and he's dead. And it's not like I don't have to take troops anyway.  

Though as an aside, the Vindicare wounds the Big Mek on 2s, not 3s (because you are INFANTRY). He's much better, no question, but Big Meks aren't really why you'd take a vindicare. Vindicare is for things with better saves and more wounds. And, as mentioned by others, the Grot Shields stratagem should work just fine against the vindicare's attacks (and that extra rule where the target takes extra mortal wounds only applies if the target takes damage, so if Grot Shields work, it doesn't trigger).  

As I recall, Grot Shields doesn't work on mortal wounds. So assuming you succeed every time to pass wounds to grots, the Vindicare can't damage you, but the Scout Snipers would require 4x squads of 10 to kill you. In this narrow application, the scouts are better snipers (though 40x Scouts is pretty spendy).

44 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

The assassin stratagem states if your warlord has the imperium keyword then you may expend reinforcement points for an assassin at the cost of a single cp in matched play. I highly doubt these stratagems will require a detachment of oficio assassinorum. Just an imperial warlord. 

That would be a first...every other set of stratagems requires a battleforged detachment of a specific keyword.

[fluger]

3 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

I really hope they take a similar approach to adding Inquisition to Imperial armies 

100% agree.

[fluger]

2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Uhhhh I still get my invul against scout snipers they still need a 3 to hit (not 2+) they wound on a 4+ (not 3+), they have no AP (instead of AP-2) and they deal 1 damage (instead of D3), oh and to kick it off, I get no invul, if the assassin fails to kill he gets chances to Mortal wound on a 3+,then a 4+,then a 5+, then a 6+.

Yea, scouts don't get that. At. All. 

Grot shield.

[pretre]

3 minutes ago, fluger said:

100% agree.

Then no one would be able to expect what inquisition models might show up...

[Guest]

Vindicare makes a strong argument for Company Veterans in SM lists. 

[WestRider]

8 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

13, since the summon an assassin strat is only usable once per game

Dammit. I missed that part. Def can't use all of mine then.

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Not much of a wild card, then. I mean, it might be a wild card if we played lots of games using the same lists, but for 1 on 1 random games, doesn't really change anything. You'll have the models you started the game with and I'll have the models I started the game with....

I am curious how they worded the stratagem requirements. Will we need a detachment of assassins to use the stratagems?

The Stratagem requirements are visible in one of the pics there. You just need to have at least one Imperium Detachment to unlock them.

[VonVilkee]

Is this expected to be the March dwarf?

[Dusldorf]

Yes

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

The Stratagem requirements are visible in one of the pics there. You just need to have at least one Imperium Detachment to unlock them.

Totally missed it. After you said it was there, re-read and there it was. Thanks. Definitely seems that Cypher and the Fallen can enable Assassins for CHAOS. I wonder if they'll FAQ this away, or that was the original intent with specifically not allowing Cypher to summon Daemons. 

I like the summoning stratagem, but it's annoying too. IMPERIUM doesn't have a whole lot of reinforcement point options, so it would mean building a list with an 85pt deficet and then either playing at a loss or selecting one of the assassins. So could be a liability in a mission where having more characters was a problem. Not a huge problem. Also means playing with 1 less CP.

That DA army of mine is struggling to make the detachments I have, fit. 85pts is a lot.

[Dusldorf]

8 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

so it would mean building a list with an 85pt deficet and then either playing at a loss or selecting one of the assassins. So could be a liability in a mission where having more characters was a problem.

I struggle to think of any mission in which it would be disadvantageous to use 85 reserve points on one of these assassins

[VonVilkee]

20 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

I struggle to think of any mission in which it would be disadvantageous to use 85 reserve points on one of these assassins

I'm thinking of it as an 85 point cp or any one of the assassins 

[Lyraeus]

7 hours ago, fluger said:

Grot shield.

Cool, so they can murder my lootas instead? Yea, that's just a wonderful pickle to be in

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Cool, so they can murder my lootas instead? Yea, that's just a wonderful pickle to be in

That's why I suggested transports... adjustments must be made at the cutting edge of the meta...

[Guest]

It's funny to think about it, but the Vindicare is probably the best model to kill other Vindicares...

[Lyraeus]

9 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

That's why I suggested transports... adjustments must be made at the cutting edge of the meta...

So, since assassins are Imperium we are talking about people with access to knights. That's a dead transport and 16.7% dead occupants. 

Yes not always a thing but even against let's say gsc they surround the transport leave me no disembark room then suddenly the transport is dead which is 120 points taken from my list elsewhere (likely more boyz) and the lootas inside are unable to disembark and thus die out right. 

Ah, last thing with a transport. I can't use stratagems on the guys inside so no shoot twice and not guaranteed hit on 5+ with more shots on 5+

[VonVilkee]

3 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

So, since assassins are Imperium we are talking about people with access to knights. That's a dead transport and 16.7% dead occupants. 

Yes not always a thing but even against let's say gsc they surround the transport leave me no disembark room then suddenly the transport is dead which is 120 points taken from my list elsewhere (likely more boyz) and the lootas inside are unable to disembark and thus die out right. 

Ah, last thing with a transport. I can't use stratagems on the guys inside so no shoot twice and not guaranteed hit on 5+ with more shots on 5+

You don't stay in it... battle wagons have enough transport to put characters inside and grots or ten lootas and grots hop out and do what you do ie just use the sheer size of the thing sideways to hide the kff from the assassin. Going second is gonna suck at the knife edge of meta. It is about target saturation or lack thereof to force your opponent into bad decisions. It is tough but meta changes swing wildly depending on your force. 

[Lyraeus]

20 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

You don't stay in it... battle wagons have enough transport to put characters inside and grots or ten lootas and grots hop out and do what you do ie just use the sheer size of the thing sideways to hide the kff from the assassin. Going second is gonna suck at the knife edge of meta. It is about target saturation or lack thereof to force your opponent into bad decisions. It is tough but meta changes swing wildly depending on your force. 

Then my KFF only works on the vehicle, I don't have the Warboss out there to provide some head knocking and HOPE they don't blow it up T1. 

Still a pricey point sink. 

You know what, nevermind. Nothing I say will make you see my point of view so it's utterly pointless to continue this. You are right and I am wrong. Let's leave it at that. 

[VonVilkee]

2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Then my KFF only works on the vehicle, I don't have the Warboss out there to provide some head knocking and HOPE they don't blow it up T1. 

Still a pricey point sink. 

You know what, nevermind. Nothing I say will make you see my point of view so it's utterly pointless to continue this. You are right and I am wrong. Let's leave it at that. 

That's not it I get that there are pieces that need to be on the board and those that don't.

 

This is a convo best had in person not on a forum board. I play orks too so i get it biggest difference is your hobby tourney goals vs my lackadaisical approach to competitive gaming these days. 

 

I'm a little like Hanur when it comes to orks. Contrarian Comes to mind 😎.

Remember battle wagons are big and can hide things out of los plus have stuff inside!

[Tamwulf]

I am very hard pressed to think of any Imperium player NOT setting aside 85 reinforcement points, seeing your army list, selecting the best assassin for your list, and paying 1 CP for it. That's, what, one less reroll for the entire game? For a HUGE force multiplier that an assassin represents? Can't believe the Vidicare has a 72" range gun, a 2+ while in cover, and a 4++ the rest of the time. LOL And the insane bonuses he gets for not moving. Pretty sure he'll be the #1 selection for most games. 

[VonVilkee]

Yep as a non imperium player got to build assuming he'll show...