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New Assassin rules from WD


Dusldorf

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4 hours ago, Tamwulf said:

I am very hard pressed to think of any Imperium player NOT setting aside 85 reinforcement points, seeing your army list, selecting the best assassin for your list, and paying 1 CP for it. That's, what, one less reroll for the entire game? For a HUGE force multiplier that an assassin represents? Can't believe the Vidicare has a 72" range gun, a 2+ while in cover, and a 4++ the rest of the time. LOL And the insane bonuses he gets for not moving. Pretty sure he'll be the #1 selection for most games. 

Depends how elite they are going. 1 CP is a lot if you can't fit the battlalion or brigade into your list. My Deathwing keeps running into challenges to this end. GK would likely face similar problems. Deathwatch isn't cheap either.

Additionally, none of the assassins are very well equipped for anti-tank (and the like) combat.

Regarding choice of assassin, the vindicare is nice unless your opponent also has one - then it's viability is reduced to who goes first. Additionally, the Vindicare can't fire into close combat (this edition), so if the opponent's list is able to engage in turn 1 charges, Vindicare might be a bad choice (Vindicare really sucks in melee). Vindicare's shooting now wounds based on the strength of the weapon vs non-infantry, and now requires additional CP for turbo penetrator rounds (which became dramatically worse), so against armies that don't feature a lot of INFANTRY, he's definitely lacking.

For example of where the Vindicare isn't viable: Vindicare vs TAU Crisis Commander (at range). Vindicare hit's on 2s, wounds on 4s (crisis suits are not INFANTRY), and then the attack is transferred to a Drone on 2+ (which discounts the entire attack and instead deals a single mortal wound to the drone). Even without the drones, he only wounds 50% of the time. And with the drones, he's near worthless.

Regarding the other assassins.

Eversor remains a nice suicide unit, but suffers if he can't get to the enemy. He's also the least protected.

Culexus got a pretty substantial change over the index version, as their psychic abomination rule is now friend or foe (index version only affects enemy psykers). So armies that don't have their own psykers will like the Culexus, but he's kinda a liability for Imperium armies that use psykers of their own.

Callidus remains pretty impressive too. Though, like the vindicare, is really focused on opponents of a certain build (like infantry). Neural shredder took a pretty huge nerf. Reign of Confusion would be pretty annoying for CP heavy opponents.

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I like your analysis. I agree that vehicle-heavy lists are the worst match-up for an assassin, but I still can't think of a list that would prefer to have 1 extra CP instead of a unit that can easily grab Linebreaker, contribute to Recon, and generally camp objectives / be annoying. The Culexus is definitely the best for this "keep-away" role. 

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Just now, Dusldorf said:

I like your analysis. I agree that vehicle-heavy lists are the worst match-up for an assassin, but I still can't think of a list that would prefer to have 1 extra CP instead of a unit that can easily grab Linebreaker, contribute to Recon, and generally camp objectives / be annoying. The Culexus is definitely the best for this "keep-away" role. 

But it's not just 1 extra CP. Remember, you have to assign 85pts as reinforcement points in list creation. So even if you don't spend the CP on the "wild card" assassin, you are still out the 85pts unless you can spend it elsewhere *during* the game (unlikely for IMPERIUM armies). It's a wild card in the respect that you have the choice of assassin, but you are kinda locked in to selecting an assassin, even it it isn't the best use of your points.

So depending on your army and the local meta, assassins might not be an "auto-include" unit, even as a wild card. 

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I realize it's 1 CP and an 85pt deficit. But I still can't think of a compelling scenario where you pick that over the wild card. Also, the idea that an assassin loses "auto-include" status because of one's local meta is a straw-man argument. If you're building a TAC list, it's clearly better to have the wild card than not. And I still can't think of an army composition that would function better without the wildcard than with it.

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1 minute ago, Dusldorf said:

I realize it's 1 CP and an 85pt deficit. But I still can't think of a compelling scenario where you pick that over the wild card. Also, the idea that an assassin loses "auto-include" status because of one's local meta is a straw-man argument. If you're building a TAC list, it's clearly better to have the wild card than not. And I still can't think of an army composition that would function better without the wildcard than with it.

If the places you play (which is what we call the "local meta") feature mostly non-infantry armies, then the assassins are definitely not auto-include. Your "wild card" isn't very wild. All the assassins are basically anti-infantry. Even the Culexus, is basically anti-psyker infantry, and will likely have trouble with non-INFANTRY psykers, like Hive Tyrants, Librarian Dreadnoughts, and Daemon Princes.

And again, if 85pts can be used elsewhere...can you really not think of an army that would benefit from +85pts? 1 CP might not be a big deal, but 85pts in list creation is substancial, especially at lower point levels.

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7 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

Yes, this is the straw-man part. It's irrelevant if you're trying to build a truly TAC list.

TAC lists are inherently dependent on the local meta. TAC means building a list to face common enemies (and on common tables). What is common is determined by how often you encounter it. The rate of encounter is determined by the local meta.

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And additionally, I'm not using the local meta as a means of disproving you. This is a tangent, not a straw-man argument.

14 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

Then we have different definitions of TAC. When I think about TAC I'm thinking much broader than a local meta. In fact it seems oxymoronic to suggest that a list is designed to "take all comers" when you built it with only your local meta in mind.

Well, when designing your TAC list, do you really consider every single legal combination of 40k army, or do you just consider the ones you have heard of? Or just the ones you've played against? Or just the ones you consider viable?

A good chunk of the legal army combinations you'll never encounter. It's foolish to design your lists to face opponents that will never show up.

And the local meta is where you play. If you mean that you play in national tournaments, then national tournaments is your local meta.

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6 hours ago, Tamwulf said:

I am very hard pressed to think of any Imperium player NOT setting aside 85 reinforcement points, seeing your army list, selecting the best assassin for your list, and paying 1 CP for it. That's, what, one less reroll for the entire game? For a HUGE force multiplier that an assassin represents? Can't believe the Vidicare has a 72" range gun, a 2+ while in cover, and a 4++ the rest of the time. LOL And the insane bonuses he gets for not moving. Pretty sure he'll be the #1 selection for most games. 

You forget, if your assassin kills a character you can spend a CP and get 2 back so 1 character kill and it pays for itself. Kill a second another phase or turn and boom 2 CP profit 

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1 minute ago, Dusldorf said:

I think a TAC list from someone who doesn't play in large tournaments should still consider the lists (and styles of play) that show up in them. 

Sure, seems reasonable that TAC list would keep in mind successful lists that they've heard of. But that's doesn't mean you prepare for everything. You prepare for common enemies (and I guess, famous ones too).

 

 

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1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Sure, seems reasonable that TAC list would keep in mind successful lists that they've heard of. But that's doesn't mean you prepare for everything. You prepare for common enemies (and I guess, famous ones too).

 

 

I play tac lists with my orks. They are designed to take on any situation and muddle through 

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20 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

I dont see very many situations that you would be upset at spending 1cp and 85 points to choose an assassin.

That stratagem was the tipping point for me changing my entire list a week out from a tournament. 

An assassin sideboard is so useful.

It's just one more thing to slow down the game, picking assassins at the start of every game. 

As an aside, I think the army type most negatively affected by assassins in every army, is actually Imperium Armies. They've just got most infantry-like statline models. Probably going to see more transports in Imperium armies as a result. 

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5 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Seems a little OP? I mean character killers for cheap? Not a fan as an non imperial army. This will simple pull the lynch pin from my Necrons, or Orks, etc.

Well, I think they are underpriced and I think GW encouraging imperial soup is a mistake, but they shouldn't impact too many non-imperium armies. 

And besides, prior to that stratagem, you could field basically the same assassins for cost and 1 CP in the form of an aux detachment. The only change here is the free detachment (which I think is about GW having trouble selling assassins if they require their own detachment).

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28 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Well, I think they are underpriced and I think GW encouraging imperial soup is a mistake, but they shouldn't impact too many non-imperium armies. 

And besides, prior to that stratagem, you could field basically the same assassins for cost and 1 CP in the form of an aux detachment. The only change here is the free detachment (which I think is about GW having trouble selling assassins if they require their own detachment).

Shouldn't impact? Singling out my Cryptek, an Ork Warboss, or any number of characters designed to be protected and for only 85 points, is crazy cheap. Regular snipers aren't that effective and price in about that or more.

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38 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Shouldn't impact? Singling out my Cryptek, an Ork Warboss, or any number of characters designed to be protected and for only 85 points, is crazy cheap. Regular snipers aren't that effective and price in about that or more.

This WD update shouldn't impact your 8e list.

Here's the Vindicare from the index, which has been something that all TAC lists should already be prepared for, since the start of this edition (I don't really see the harm in posting it when it's basically obsolete rules).

IMG_20190220_133511482.thumb.jpg.a335c10dc9ca775f64893dfb09af4cdd.jpg

The WD version may be a little better and the stratagems are nice, but your TAC list should already be prepared for the above, so the WD change shouldn't impact your list.

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Regarding the Vindicare, as mentioned before, the best defense is being non-INFANTRY. Putting your Orks on Bikes, for example, is a pretty solid counter to the vindicare. 

Necrons have a few options in terms of non-INFANTRY HQs.

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23 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

This WD update shouldn't impact your 8e list.

Here's the Vindicare from the index, which has been something that all TAC lists should already be prepared for, since the start of this edition (I don't really see the harm in posting it when it's basically obsolete rules).

IMG_20190220_133511482.thumb.jpg.a335c10dc9ca775f64893dfb09af4cdd.jpg

The WD version may be a little better and the stratagems are nice, but your TAC list should already be prepared for the above, so the WD change shouldn't impact your list.

And now it has a head shot ability and the ability to shoot twice 

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But in regards to impacts on your list, your complaints about the Vindicare being able to, for example, kill off your Cryptechs and KFF Meks isn't really representing a major change over the INDEX version of the same unit. So with a supposed TAC list, the Vindicare getting slightly better at killing characters shouldn't really be impacting your list that much.

Unless, of course, your supposed TAC list wasn't prepared for the infamous Vindicare at all...

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