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OFCC list feedback - AdMech/Knights


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No, back to the attitude stuff. It's important. That's the key, the key I think you're missing. Not once in any post about OFCC have you mentioned a model looking cool, or being fun to play

This is the NASCAR of list feedback threads. Endless circles. What lap are we on?

Doesn't sound like you'd enjoy it. Sounds like you don't understand what OFCC offers. It's not about denying what's fun for you, it's a out denying what others can't deal with a majority of the time.

6 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Ah, thank you for that. You prove my point. 

If you think your list is what wins games I will gladly disprove that. People win games not just with their list but hey, if you want to say people only win because they have X or they have Y then I guess player skill doesn't really matter

It isn't lists but watch out for optimization. As ofcc is an event not a tournament over half the field are "dirty casuals" who are not on the cutting edge and jump to worse case scenarios. Great people to hang out with for a couple of hours rolling dice but not optimized or up to date on the best way to deal with the powerful that has a major weakness to exploit. 

 

With list building avoid setting up gotcha unit deletion as many opposing lists will have fewer responses to power units. Lists that go all in on leveraging their strengths will meet some resistance as you've seen. The trick is that the competition is really to be the most fun guy to play not win your games. This means different things to different people. To stack your chances for the Marshall Johnson award (the most prestigious) you need to step back from cutting edge let go of some crutch units and let loose.

I was the captain of a team last year that had to fight tooth and nail to get a knight list through. My player who brought it only really had access to it, I wanted to make a point, and while we won the Marshall Johnson he is bringing nothing but a marine list this year. My suggestion is not to take lists that cater to the forum here or even change the list perhaps but just take lists that aren't on the cutting edge to help with the feels.

 

Wow that got long! As the captain take the lists on your team and ask your self how would I match this up against 2 bottom 25% lists (ones that have few answers so no matter the skill they lose but "look" like armies from the fluff) one solid contender, and one fairly competitive list who has probably had to draw all the other competitive lists. You will be balancing their fun does that competitive guy need to play all the lists with the loyal 32 or the next best thing cuz that's what he brought? I've found leveling with players on what they would get matched up with based on the list they turned in can have an impact on what list they think will be fun...

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No, back to the attitude stuff. It's important.

That's the key, the key I think you're missing.

Not once in any post about OFCC have you mentioned a model looking cool, or being fun to play against. You've mentioned comparing power levels, you've mentioned generalship and list making. These are all great things to think about but they're not what OFCC is here for. It's a different beast. It's focused on the other side of the table. Is this fun to play against in a casual setting? Is this a cool model you don't offten see because it's not super optimised?

I'm not calling you out and I don't want you to feel singled out. I'm just re-stating what this whole shebang is for. It's for fun, it's for inclusion. Are the choices you're making increasing that inclusion or decreasing it?

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Because you need more people piling on....

As this is your first OFCC those of us who have been around the block a few times are just trying to help you out. This is an invitational event, not a tournament. Remember you will be playing people who have probably been drinking, who are casuals, and people of all generalship levels. Like Vonvilkee said, if you pair your lists up to sub-optimal lists will everyone have fun? 

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16 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Yea, I don't mind a castellan. 

 

I get the point but to me. It's OFCC telling people how they are or are not allowed to have fun. 

Doesn't sound like you'd enjoy it. Sounds like you don't understand what OFCC offers. It's not about denying what's fun for you, it's a out denying what others can't deal with a majority of the time. You don't get squat for winning all 5 of your games, that's the point. If anything consider list toning for next time or if your opponents liked you so much they want a rematch.

 

I own 12 destroyers, yet only bring one squad of 6. Why, because I know point for point they're super strong at erasing vehicles.

 

I know you enjoy ITC and more competitive environments. This is not that venue. OFCC offers something unique. As Hanaur said there's a lot less restriction than you think. Just be aware your not bringing an LVO leaf blower list to OFCC and you'd be fine.

 

One last thing, attitude is what makes OFCC. Laugh, giggle, fart, just don't get stressed, don't get mad at yourself or your opponents and you'll fit right in. I always find beer and pretzels is what I enjoy at OFCC. Don't get me wrong I'll play to my best general abilities, just toning my list down offers a challenge too.

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17 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I just don't think the IG super heavies are as much of a concern.  Don't even get me started about their busted ass Forge world stuff, but the codex stuff has seemed to be fine and not "ohmuhgerd, what do I do" inducing.

 

What IG Forgeworld stuff do you consider "busted?" It's pretty commonly held that FW stuff is underpowered and expensive.

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17 minutes ago, necrontyr said:

What IG Forgeworld stuff do you consider "busted?" It's pretty commonly held that FW stuff is underpowered and expensive.

Honestly it's just depends on your matchup (this is why teams are good allows variation for matchup). I don't know all the FW models, but just needs judgement. None of my Necron GW stuff seems broken and Castellan as brought up above could be wiped in a turn with a 100% anti armor guard list, and some others (but an unbalanced list like pure anti tank only seems rarer). I always build my lists balanced, some anti tank, some anti Infantry, and some fluffy. And usually less than 1k of stronger stuff, avoiding anything that has proven problematic for opponents too many times. If I looked back and Castellan wasn't dead in 50% or more of my battles (or more than 50% of my games weren't close) then I'd drop him. Knowing my opponent likely didn't have fun.

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5 hours ago, PourSpelur said:

No, back to the attitude stuff. It's important.

That's the key, the key I think you're missing.

Not once in any post about OFCC have you mentioned a model looking cool, or being fun to play against. You've mentioned comparing power levels, you've mentioned generalship and list making. These are all great things to think about but they're not what OFCC is here for. It's a different beast. It's focused on the other side of the table. Is this fun to play against in a casual setting? Is this a cool model you don't offten see because it's not super optimised?

I'm not calling you out and I don't want you to feel singled out. I'm just re-stating what this whole shebang is for. It's for fun, it's for inclusion. Are the choices you're making increasing that inclusion or decreasing it?

Eh, it is what it is. 

If I go at this point because it seems many people think I should not attend now, I am bringing Deffwotch. Orks converted to Space Marines because that's how I see fun. 

To me fun is list building it is a challenge, it is a tough game that was laughed over and had fun over. 

That's fun. 

 

As for the comment on teams, I get it and as a team leader that's the goal, however telling someone they can't bring something bugs me because I am telling that teammate they can't have fun how they want. If this was 7th with formations I would definitely tell the tau player.... No but this is 8th, with a host of ways to play, build, and combat your opponents. Even a Fluffy Marine Company can handle a Castellan, you just need to have a plan. However even if my team was bringing that we wouldn't throw one at a person who's list wasn't fully prepared for it. 

 

What I don't get is why people have "feels bad" moments. Why must you equate a past experience to the game in front of you? Why not play for such eventuality in the future and figure out a better method of play? 

 

@Dark Trainer all my lists you have seen or played, well besides one week, are balanced lists with tactical flexibility in mind. That's how my building works. Do I have a fun silly idea for OFCC? Sure, it includes Ambull's, Gretchin as Guardsman, and Ork Space Marines. It's not a pushover list by any means but it's not dialed to win a GT either

 

I think what should be said is that it's a casual environment and casual lists are more than welcome. 

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55 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I think what should be said is that it's a casual environment and casual lists are more than welcome

The issue is when teams take note of that offer and decide they'd prefer not to casual lists. 

The goal is fun for both players every game. And I whole heartedly agree with you that it isn't fair for someone to just assume that because their opponent has X unit that the game can't be fun. 

On the other hand, it's not entirely fair for your prospective opponents to be solely responsible for their enjoyment of the game. "I took a list I find fun to play, now you must find a way to enjoy playing against it" isn't exactly an equitable arrangement either.

To that end, I don't think there should be a "no Castellans" rule. But maybe it's worth considering taking a sub-optimal weapon choice on it (I have no idea how Castellans work or what their weapon options are). Or, if a castellan is included, maybe the list around it can have some fluffy bunnies to compromise. Something like that. 

For my part (I know nobody asked) I am not very plugged in to the competitive meta and try not to be. At first, the game just got too big for me to keep up with all the combos out there, but over time it's definitely helped my attitude towards the game. If I don't know what a castellan is, I won't have unfair preconceived notions about it.

The flip side is I have to trust my opponent to give an honest appraisal of the capabilities of a unit I'm unfamiliar with. If they want to pull a gotcha on me, they can, and have. But considering that sportsmanship is weighted more heavily than winning, it's kind of a cut off your nose to spite your face move.

My least enjoyable games at the OFCC were never because I was on the receiving end of a wood chipper list. They were because the attitude my opponent had and choices they made were clearly for victory at the expense of enjoyment. 

In summary, use good judgement and don't let anyone talk you out of going. If there are issues, they'll be addressed appropriately. That's always been my experience with the OFCC and I'm confident this year will be the same.

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Themed teams are what we like doing.  

We did an all Tau bunch that we required to have Stingwings and stealthsuits in them (when both were...not good).  Lists were rated and we had a 5 out of a possible 10.  Hehehe.

We split the Necron Codex up into its 4 parts and played a "Star God" list, a Canoptek Harvest, a Destroyer Cult list and an Invasion list.  That was pretty fun.  did matching boards and such.

We did a horde army therme where you couldn't go below 120 models or soemthing like that.  I think we had Chaos Daemons, Tau, Chaos Space Marines and IG.

We did a Rolling Thunder team where we had to have everything mechanized or walking on servos.  I played Sisters, and we also had Space Marines, and for the life of me I can't remember the other two...  

Anywho, that's sort of what we've done in the past.  Something different every year.  So instead of optimizing the lists and planning to face the inevitrable Ynnari or Castellan TYPE threats, we sort of restricted ourselves.  Our conscious goal in most cases was to try and get ranked as low as possible on list difficulty, when that was still something you could do.

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2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

however telling someone they can't bring something bugs me because I am telling that teammate they can't have fun how they want. If this was 7th with formations I would definitely tell the tau player.... No but this is 8th, with a host of ways to play, build, and combat your opponents. 

 

@Dark Trainer all my lists you have seen or played, well besides one week, are balanced lists with tactical flexibility in mind. That's how my building works. Do I have a fun silly idea for OFCC? Sure, it includes Ambull's, Gretchin as Guardsman, and Ork Space Marines. It's not a pushover list by any means but it's not dialed to win a GT either

 

I think what should be said is that it's a casual environment and casual lists are more than welcome. 

To the first point, it's always been a point of contention for OFCC. As Hanaur stated, way more lax than about 3+ years ago. Can't please everyone. Also I don't know that they're banning lists, the current meta is to have captains police their teams. Returning players usually get the balance being asked.

 

To the 2nd, I didn't mean your lists we're harsh. I agree what we played was fine. I just meant thoughtfully consider your opponents and matchups when thinking OFCC. The original poster asked about Castellan being a feared/hated model? Maybe..., was Mortarion OP at a point, etc. 3 flyers in 6th, multiple Titans in 7th, etc.

 

3rd point is true, but I think the level they shoot for rather than pure casual lists now is roughly a PAR like list. What's the average space Marine power for example, that's what's meant to be built around. I'll admit it's not easy because none of the army's or identical and there's a lot of opinions in between.

 

One more point from me in general about 40k. I personally feel 40K is not a tournament level game system. X-Wing was great and many other games are great for tournaments. 40K has always been imbalanced. I'll admit 8th edition is a lot better, but not everything is created equal. Yet I still played, even looking forward to that next ITC event we hold. Because for me it's the awesome people I get to play rather than a trophy.

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1 hour ago, Munkie said:

The issue is when teams take note of that offer and decide they'd prefer not to casual lists. 

 

Game theory 101.

As for the rest of your comment. I can bring orks, a well balanced ork list made to tackle all situations and someone somewhere will have issues with it. 

You can't please everyone. Many times it's not the list that is the issue it's how it is played that will be the problem. 

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1 hour ago, Munkie said:

Oh, also, that ork army sounds [big bad swear word]ing dope. I'm excited to see it all set up.

Well yea the problem is that it's about 75% competitive. The Vanguard Vets in the Deffwotch vet squads are storm shield and power Lance and such but there are a ton of storm shields and a termie or two per. It's strong but not smash mouth strong. 

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29 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

@WestRider

Just a thought, would the castellan be the same problem if the player switch's to a renegade knight list?

Renegade knights lack the stratagems, relics, and houses that create most of complaints I read online regarding that particular unit.

It's still pretty ridiculous even without those, but not as bad. The comparison with the Shadowsword still holds: The Castellan costs about 20% more, but has nearly twice the firepower, difficult to quantify but substantially better durability, and is far better able to deal with being Assaulted.

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What about a daemon summoning castellan?

Go with a character renegade castellan, and then have a good chunk of your points in reinforcement points for daemonic summoning.

Gw FAQ says renegade knight characters can summon, and it sounds like the player already has daemons. And if it's too powerful, they could just summon less.

Just thinking. 

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1) DeffWotch = awesome

We briefly discussed it in PMs, think I forgot to post pics, sorry about that

B) OFCC is great not because it tells you how to have fun, it's great because it tells you "Hey, we all plan on going and having fun this way. If that sounds fun to you please join!"

1 the third) Damn the WDL, it's all about them sweet pins.

Looking forward to seeing you there, hit me up and I'll buy you a beer.

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39 minutes ago, PourSpelur said:

1) DeffWotch = awesome

We briefly discussed it in PMs, think I forgot to post pics, sorry about that

B) OFCC is great not because it tells you how to have fun, it's great because it tells you "Hey, we all plan on going and having fun this way. If that sounds fun to you please join!"

1 the third) Damn the WDL, it's all about them sweet pins.

Looking forward to seeing you there, hit me up and I'll buy you a beer.

Hahaha I doubt I will get a pin. 

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1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Game theory 101.

As for the rest of your comment. I can bring orks, a well balanced ork list made to tackle all situations and someone somewhere will have issues with it. 

You can't please everyone. Many times it's not the list that is the issue it's how it is played that will be the problem. 

Agreed. In my experience at the OFCC, that someone somewhere who'll take issue with anything they feel is OP isn't generally at the OFCC. Bad attitudes can take many forms. Face-stompy list design, cutthroat/"WAAC" attitude at the table, and, yes, excessive whinging about perceived power builds or problem units.

None of the above are particularly welcome at the OFCC. Of the 38 OFCC games I've played in, I've had 3 games I walked away from feeling bad about. And even those weren't wholly disasters, just a "dude, really?" moment or two (usually game deciding) that kinda tarnished the experience.

2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Well yea the problem is that it's about 75% competitive. The Vanguard Vets in the Deffwotch vet squads are storm shield and power Lance and such but there are a ton of storm shields and a termie or two per. It's strong but not smash mouth strong. 

75% competitive shouldn't be a problem. You just want to encourage a little power variance within the team. The rest can be sorted out with appropriate matchups.

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