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Legit Update to IG (AM) Army


MikhailLenin

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Primary: SoB

Secondary: AM

 

HQ:

Saint Celestine - Warlord

Company Command Squad w/ Lascannon, Vox Caster, Regimental Standard, Tactical Auto-etc...

Primaris Psyker - 3x - Mastery Level 2

SoB Ministrum Priests - 5x - 3x Meltabombs , 1 Litanies of Faith

 

Troops:

Sister of Battle Squad - 5x - Meltagun, Rhino

Sister of Battle Squad - 5x - Meltagun, Rhino

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad - 1 Lascannon

Infantry Squad - 1 Lascannon, Vox Caster

Infantry Squad - 1 Lascannon, Vox Caster

Infantry Squad - 1 Lascannon

Infantry Squad - 1 Lascannon

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad - 1 Lascannon

Infantry Squad - 1 Power Axe, 1 Meltabomb

Infantry Squad - 1 Power Axe, 1 Meltabomb

Infantry Squad - 1 Power Axe, 1 Meltabomb

Infantry Squad - 1 Power Axe, 1 Meltabomb

Infantry Squad - 1 Power Axe, 1 Meltabomb

 

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad - 5x - 4 Flamers, Rhino

Dominion Squad - 5x - 4 Flamers, Rhino

 

Total 1,850 Pts

 

Effectively you would have a Blob with 50 Guardsmen (5 Power Axe Sergeants, 5 Meltabombs), 3 Priests for Warhymms+Hatred+Fearless (3more Meltabombs and 1 Litanies of Faith), Celestine for Hit & Run+Fearless+LD 10 for Warhymms and 1 Primaris Psyker preferably with either/or both Prescience and Forewarning (With 3 Character rolling twice, its likely).

 

That Blob is now ready to tackle some of the toughness, meanest units in the game short of 3+ Knight Titans at the same time.

 

For some of us who don't get the combo is the effective force Multiplier:

 

Warhymms is a LD test at the Start of Combat that each priest can use (effectively a Psychic Power that is uncancellable) at Celestine LD of 10 if they are withing 12" or AutoPass if they are equipped with Litanies of Faith.

The Choices are the following:

  • Re-Roll Armor and Invul Save in for that Round of Combat
  • Re-Roll to Wound Rolls for that Round of Combat
  • Grants Smash to the Priest which essentially makes his attack AP2 and he can choose to double his str for half his attacks and gains the ability to reroll to armor pen.
Lets Focus of Warhymm #1 with the Primaris Psyker in the unit, If you roll average on all 3 of your Psyker, one should have Forewarning (Prescience for the Blob isn't all that necessary but neat and I will go into why after). Forewarning grants a 4+ Invul save to the Unit. Now in conjunction with Warhymm number 1, thats a pretty durable CC unit right there. The reason why you dont care too much about Presience (outside of rerolling to his Lasgun fire in Overwatch and shooting) is because the Priest have Zealot which grants Hatred and Fearless to the unit. Hatred is the ability to reroll all C&C rolls for the first round of combat which moot when you have a Hard to Kill Character that grants you Hit&Run that only fails 1/6 of the time.

 

Warhymm #2 comes in really useful with the fact your Guardsman are Str 3 and that your Sergeants at Str 4 and with 8 Meltabombs + Celestine Super Duper Sword, you can effective punk all the Wraithknights in the world.

 

The other 2 priests are cheapo Fearless granters to the 2 other 20 Man Lascannon Blobs and the Primaris PSykers without Forewarning can grant Prescience to those blobs (or whatever other Powers) while the Platoon Command and the Company Command squad can grant those platoons their other required buffing powers for shooting or mobility.

 

The Sister of Battle Rhino Meltagun Squad are merely for reserve usage and fetching objectives you dont want to throw your blobs at.

 

The Dominion are great tools to get Linebreaker (due to having Outflank) and remove Small scoring units in your opponent backfield if your Super Duper Melee Blob can't get there late game from Punking everything in your opponent army. (especially awesome if you get Scryer's Gaze on a Primaris).

 

The combination of also having 7 Lascannons that Can Reroll to Hit, Ignore Cover, etc... gives you some great tools at popping enemy transports or putting wounds on big creatures quickly.

 

Now, the Flyer Defense is easy: Just Cover the board and ignore flyers. If you can bubble the [big bad swear word] out of Objectives, they are not a threat.

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I like the basic idea- super-tough blobs, but I'm not sure about the overall execution here. I assume the three Primaris are just trying for 4++ to buff guys? It seems like Azrael would be an easier/cheaper inclusion to get that, since he brings Fearless (covering Celestine's job) as well as pretty good melee and a 4++ that can't be shut down and doesn't need any rolls. I would also worry about the Primaris getting sniped out by barrage weapons- T3 with a 4+ isn't all that hard to drop, so your first failed Look Out, Sir! could be the end of that plan. Is five Priests really needed? I guess because of the above issues it could easily be, and they're so cheap it hardly matters.

 

Seems like the list would struggle against tanks some, though- six Lascannons isn't a lot in 1850 and they're all pretty vulnerable to getting taken out; you're relying a lot on Orders to make them do their job (as they're only BS3), but being unable to do two Orders at once mean you'll either be losing half your shots to missing or half of them to cover. Other than that you're basically banking on Meltabombs doing your work for you and that doesn't seem very realistic against many types of vehicles- you can ignore some flyers, but some others will tear you up pretty badly. Valkyries and Vultures are going to tear your blob up pretty badly and even Stormtalons and Night Scythes will do some very real damage to you- and most of those also have the capacity to drop troops on distant objectives while you have no realistic way to stop them.

 

Basically, I'm not sure what the SoB half is bringing you that something else couldn't do better. I guess Hit and Run for the blob? I think I'd rather get that from an SM character or something, though- SoB's utility outside of its HQs is pretty minimal and IG already have access to Priests in-codex. Your basic punches give you as ton of anti-infantry (as does FRFSRF), so the Dominions aren't really doing much and you don't even have Exorcists for fire support.

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AbusePuppy you are missing the point of Celestine - LD 10 Warhymms versus LD 7 and Hit & Run for super Cheap while retaining a really tough Warlord Point giver.

As well as the Dominion job to shred my opponent msu scoring units, dont care much for chasing tanks.

 

BS 3 Lascannon with Prescience and Orders on a R-Rerollable LD 9.... Pretty sure I got Orders.

Sure Barrage weapons can snipe but the unit has to have weakness....

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Ld10 isn't exactly tough to get for the blob- 25pt Inquisitor, bam, done. HnR is certainly a thing, but is it really that important? With hymns and all the other buffs, you should be pretty easily winning combat. Yarrick is arguably tougher in a number of ways and doesn't tie you down with the SoB codex.

 

The Dominions obviously do that job (assuming the other guy doesn't go first and wreck them, anyways), but my point was that IG have access to tons of things that can do the same. Punishers, Wyverns, Valkyries, Flamer PCS, Hellhounds, etc, all perform a pretty similar role, and that's not even getting into allies for other stuff (Tau, SM, Eldar, etc.)

 

I'm not questioning your ability to succeed on rolls for Orders- the tough part is gonna be keeping the order-givers alive. Guardsmen aren't exactly stalwart, and you can bet that any smart opponent is going to target your force multipliers first.

 

The only reason I bring up barrage sniping is that TFCs and their cousins are pretty common these days; time will tell how much of an issue it ends up being, but it's certainly something I've thought about when working over IG lists, because if you lose your Priests and/or other support characters, the blob starts looking a lot less threatening.

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AbusePuppy there is proof that you use the Priest LD just by reading the Warlord Trait of A) Celestine and B) why would Priest LD test function different than Psychic Test or any LD test based on model specific?

 

Because Psychic tests explicitly says that they must use the Leadership of the model in question, but War Hymns do not? Yes, it means that part of Celestine's warlord trait is less useful than it might otherwise be, but since when is GW writing awkward and sometimes-meaningless rules anything new? You could argue the same thing about Yarrick's "Draconian Disciplinarian" trait combined with his Summary Execution rule.

 

Page 7 of the rulebook is fairly explicit on the matter:

 

"To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure: roll 2d6 and compare the result to the model's Leadership. ...If a unit contains models with multiple Leadership values, always use the highest amongst them."

 

Unlike the Characteristic Tests section, it says nothing about this implying that it only works when the entire unit is taking a Leadership test- indeed, the wordings in the two sections, even though they are right next to each other and similar in function, are quite different. Leadership tests don't follow the same rules as other characteristic tests, which amongst other things mean that you can ALWAYS use another model's Leadership for one unless a rule states otherwise. Psychic tests do; War Hymns don't.

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Page 7 of the rulebook is fairly explicit on the matter:

 

"To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure: roll 2d6 and compare the result to the model's Leadership. ...If a unit contains models with multiple Leadership values, always use the highest amongst them."

 

Unlike the Characteristic Tests section, it says nothing about this implying that it only works when the entire unit is taking a Leadership test- indeed, the wordings in the two sections, even though they are right next to each other and similar in function, are quite different. Leadership tests don't follow the same rules as other characteristic tests, which amongst other things mean that you can ALWAYS use another model's Leadership for one unless a rule states otherwise. Psychic tests do; War Hymns don't.

 

Not really feeling that you are addressing the relavent point in ML's arguement.  In the cut and paste you have, you've also ignored the "Basic versus Advanced" section which does clearly state when there is a model has an advanced rule, it will always override the basic ones.  Specifically, the always use the highest leadership would not apply to War Hymns which by definition are an advanced rule.  In the War Hymns description it clearly states the model takes a leadership test.

 

Using the unit's leadership is an assumptive opinon which can only really work by framing it as an ordinary Leadership check.  However, the sentence "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex." also clearly defines in this case how to determine an advanced rule versus a basic one.

 

In all reality it can be argued both ways, I just find the default to higest leadership line of thought to be based more on interpretation and assumption.

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Advanced rules only override basic ones where they contradict each other; the War Hymns rules does not in any way contradict the Leadership test rules- in fact, it's utterly dependent on them in order to have any meaning.

 

 

In the War Hymns description it clearly states the model takes a leadership test.

 

Hence why we are referring to the Leadership test rules for how we do this, and those rules explicitly state that we use the highest Leadership value in the unit. It's not even an option to not do so.

 

If the Priest's Hymns said "makes a test on its own Leadership" or something similar, I think there would be grounds for argument, but that really isn't the case.

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Advanced rules only override basic ones where they contradict each other; the War Hymns rules does not in any way contradict the Leadership test rules- in fact, it's utterly dependent on them in order to have any meaning.

 

 

Hence why we are referring to the Leadership test rules for how we do this, and those rules explicitly state that we use the highest Leadership value in the unit. It's not even an option to not do so.

 

If the Priest's Hymns said "makes a test on its own Leadership" or something similar, I think there would be grounds for argument, but that really isn't the case.

 

The first sentance is inaccruate.  The sections actually states, that the basic rules are between the pages of 10 and 31 of the BRB.  Which also explains why page 32 starts with "Special Rules."  Additionally, in cases where a basic rule and an advanced rule are in conflict the advanced rule will override.

 

Also in those basic rules, the sentence is "If a unit contains..."  The battle hymn ability is not a unit check, but specifically details "A model with this special rule can take a Leadership test..."  Which actually is an alternative way of writing your third sentence.

 

Interestingly enough on page 63... Characters a Leaders:  "Remember that a unit's Leadership tests are taken using the highest Leadership value in the unit (see page 7).  As characters normally have a better leadershlp than other warriors, this means that they make very good leaders for unlts ln your army."

 

Battle hymn's is not a unit's leadership test...

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I'm still not getting how anyone is seeing the basic vs. advanced rules bit being relevant. You HAVE to use the basic rules in order for the Priest's ability to make any sense, otherwise you're left sitting there with no idea how to resolve this mysterious thing called a "Leadership check."

 

 

Also in those basic rules, the sentence is "If a unit contains..."  The battle hymn ability is not a unit check,

 

Keep reading that sentence. The portion you're quoting there does NOT refer only to units, it specifies what happens when any part of a unit- which may contain multiple models and thus multiple different Leadership values- is forced to make a Leadership check. This is one of the key differences, because the text under Leadership checks is very different from the text under Characteristic checks in this regard.

 

I don't know the wording on the SoB codex, as I don't have it, but the IG Priest's ability is worded "A Ministorum Priest can take a Leadership check at the beginning of each fight sub-phase to..." That's not the same as "take a test on its own Leadership" at all.

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