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Charcaradons - What do?


Sgt. Rock

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So I'm seriously thinking of building a Charcaradons army and running them as "counts-as" Space Wolves. The Space Sharks are alluded to being a Raven Guard successor chapter, but I feel like the SW have the units and rules that would be more appropriate for them. I know I wouldn't have access to Tyberos, but I'm not real keen on running named characters anyway (for my own fluffy grognard reasons.) Thoughts?

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4 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

So I'm seriously thinking of building a Charcaradons army and running them as "counts-as" Space Wolves. The Space Sharks are alluded to being a Raven Guard successor chapter, but I feel like the SW have the units and rules that would be more appropriate for them. I know I wouldn't have access to Tyberos, but I'm not real keen on running named characters anyway (for my own fluffy grognard reasons.) Thoughts?

Depends how much conversion/counts as you want to do. SW would work fine, but some of their better units would require conversions (wulfen, thunderwolves, some of the others). Really depends on what you want them to do and how much time/effort your willing to put into them. 

Meanwhile, SM do have a fully functional codex and could definitely represent "charcaradons" without issue. Really depends on how you want to make them.

I suggest fiddling with battlescribe until you get a couple of "ideal" lists using the SW codex and post those for comment. I find that I oftne like a codex, but then start fiddling with list creation and don't actually like the lists created, even if i like the individual units within the list. 

 

And then you could always make fallen "Charcaradons" and use one of the Chaos books. Those shark guys would make really easy Khorne dedicated without any conversions. 

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35 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

That's true about the list creation. I'll have to futz around with it. I know they're supposedly a Raven Guard successor (maybe) but the -1 to  hit outside 12" just doesn't seem all that stellar. Although it does make it easier to get into melee, I suppose...

Yeah, but are you picking the army with the best rules, or the army that best represents your chapter?

If GW actually has rules for your chapter, even as a successor, then best representative of your chapter is your chapter...

On the other hand, if SW has the rules you want, why not just play space wolves?

Anywho, could also do a chaos version or a version of Deathwatch where every member is coincidentally originally from your chapter...

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Anyway, none of the chapter rules are *stellar*

They're very minor tweaks on the existing codex. Even the codex specific chapters have rather nominal chapter rules.

The relics, special characters, chapter-specific units, stratagems and warlord traits are all rather minor. They can certainly be optimized, but all Marines play basically the same way.

Is there something specific that the SW have that your army lacks AND needs?

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Well, the Space Sharks don't have any chapter rules of their own. It's alluded to in the fluff that they're a Raven Guard successor, but nobody really knows for certain (GW likes their mystery chapters). They also really relish getting into melee and tearing things to shreds, which doesn't seem to be the RG way of doing things. They do have a predilection for being really sneaky until they get to melee range and then striking very violently and rapidly. So maybe RG, maybe not. Space Wolves, on the other hand, seem to have a lot of the elements that fit with the Charcaradon's methods of warfare; a lot of focus on melee and the speed to get there. Grey Hunters, the basic "tactical squad" equivalent, can take chainswords just because, which really seems to fit. I dunno.  

I've thought about playing Space Wolves, but I'm really not interested in them. I like their rules and the way they play (at least, from what I've observed, never played with them myself), but I'm really not interested in everything having to be wolf themed or be covered in pelts and goddamn wolf tails and crap like that. 

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Have you considered spamming melee scouts? Or just playing without troops?

This edition doesn't require troops. Just saying.

Could also tweak the role of your troops in your army and just field minimal squads with heavy weapons while your fast/elites go in for melee.

Another consideration is that rhinos/pods can hold 2x 5-man units in a single transport. A 5-man tactical with melee Sarge and special weapon paired with a 5-man assault squad (without jump packs) could all be crammed into a single transport.

Another still if going for alternative chapters, black Templar crusader squads are able to take melee weapons on troops....

 

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Anyway, seems like a lot of work to make a chapter into another chapter, especially if the models already have rules as written.

Now I'm fiddling around on Battlescribe.

-For starters, chapter is spelled: "Carcharodons." We've been spelling it wrong.

-That FW special character is awesome. Spendy, but awesome. Very strong in melee (offensively). S9 melee weapon with AP-4 and 3 damage each, and 5x attacks, rolling all hits. Or S5 melee weapon, re-roll hits and wounds, with -3 ap and 2 damage each. Character has a deepstrike option. Special character also lacks a pre-determined warlord trait, as far as I can tell:

-Ravenguard Warlord trait makes warlord immune to overwatch. Not exactly hard to see how this plus that ^ would be nasty. Might not kill knights outright, due to lack of attacks, but shouldn't be hard to deal 6-9 wounds in melee to a basic imperial knight with just this guy on the charge. He can deal up to 15 wounds to a single target in a single assault phase.

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8 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Well, the Space Sharks don't have any chapter rules of their own. It's alluded to in the fluff that they're a Raven Guard successor, but nobody really knows for certain (GW likes their mystery chapters). They also really relish getting into melee and tearing things to shreds, which doesn't seem to be the RG way of doing things. They do have a predilection for being really sneaky until they get to melee range and then striking very violently and rapidly. So maybe RG, maybe not. Space Wolves, on the other hand, seem to have a lot of the elements that fit with the Charcaradon's methods of warfare; a lot of focus on melee and the speed to get there. Grey Hunters, the basic "tactical squad" equivalent, can take chainswords just because, which really seems to fit. I dunno.  

I've thought about playing Space Wolves, but I'm really not interested in them. I like their rules and the way they play (at least, from what I've observed, never played with them myself), but I'm really not interested in everything having to be wolf themed or be covered in pelts and goddamn wolf tails and crap like that. 

Run them as using Space Wolves rules. I wouldn't even worry about converting special units like wulfen, etc.. They are your army, and if you want to include those units in a Charcaradons army, then I say do it! 

Maybe they have been SW successors this entire time, and the tearing of the galaxy in two activated their latent wolfiness? Maybe they have been hiding the mutated marines away this entire. time. Who knows?! But don't let people tell you how to model or run your army. There lies the path to sadness. 

I look forward to seeing this project. 😄 

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13 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Well, the Space Sharks don't have any chapter rules of their own. It's alluded to in the fluff that they're a Raven Guard successor, but nobody really knows for certain (GW likes their mystery chapters). They also really relish getting into melee and tearing things to shreds, which doesn't seem to be the RG way of doing things. They do have a predilection for being really sneaky until they get to melee range and then striking very violently and rapidly. So maybe RG, maybe not. Space Wolves, on the other hand, seem to have a lot of the elements that fit with the Charcaradon's methods of warfare; a lot of focus on melee and the speed to get there. Grey Hunters, the basic "tactical squad" equivalent, can take chainswords just because, which really seems to fit. I dunno.  

I've thought about playing Space Wolves, but I'm really not interested in them. I like their rules and the way they play (at least, from what I've observed, never played with them myself), but I'm really not interested in everything having to be wolf themed or be covered in pelts and goddamn wolf tails and crap like that. 

Raven Guard do also have a CC tendency. It's been emphasized more in past editions, but there are still elements of it there, in their Warlord Trait, Special Character, and Relic.

But I also looked back at their old entry in Badab War vol.2, and their Chapter Tactic in there was basically Furious Charge, same as the Blood Angels had at that time, so BA might be worth consideration as well. That said, the Red Brethren special rule that they also had would fit very nicely with Grey Hunter rules. Finally, the original fluff for the SW, from Rogue Trader, didn't really have any particular wolfy aesthetic to them beyond the chapter symbol, and they were a much nicer grey back then, too.

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I would also consider using chaos renegades from the vigilus ablaze. The red corsairs gives you more cp, the red brotherhood could be Khorne berserkers giving you additional chances to fight with them. Terminators are good now for chaos with the stock option being chain axes! For troops chaos Marines can mix bolters and chain swords, cultists could be your initiates maybe the sharks use them a little bit more as a trail by fire before you get your fins (gene seed). Finally the red corsairs unique strategem allows you to recycle a chaos Marines troops unit, remove Target unit and place it at full strength with in 6" of any table edge and more than 9" from an enemy. Nice little flanking move.

 

Oh havocs being their heavy weapon troopers with move and fire no penalty is kind of shark like... Can't stop moving or they die...

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