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Brother Glacius

New Chaos Marine project

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4 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

I have no desire to abuse it, just understand it all so that I can come up with house rules to make sure its still fun to use and play against.

Try it a few times before you try to modify it. It can be unbalanced, but it might not be. Depends on how you use it and the opponent's army.

For matched play, I kept running into issues regarding the loss of the movement phase for characters. Almost everything chaos wants to move closer to the opponent. Embarked characters can't summon, ones that deepstrike can't, and so on and so forth. Plus you can really damage a character with summoning, so risky on your warlord.

The one cool thing you can do with summoning, is use it to exceed the duplicate datasheet limit. In list creation for matched play, a 2k army can have no more than 3 of the same unit (aside from troops and dedicated transports), but since summoning is not part of list creation, you can summon beyond this limit. So I can field 5 identical bloodthirsters if I summon 2 of them during the game. Never did figure out how to make it viable, but I was more going for fun anyway and it is kinda fun.

The other big limitation with summoning is that you have to actually have the models to summon them.

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18 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

The one cool thing you can do with summoning, is use it to exceed the duplicate datasheet limit. In list creation for matched play, a 2k army can have no more than 3 of the same unit (aside from troops and dedicated transports), but since summoning is not part of list creation, you can summon beyond this limit. So I can field 5 identical bloodthirsters if I summon 2 of them during the game. Never did figure out how to make it viable, but I was more going for fun anyway and it is kinda fun.

The other big limitation with summoning is that you have to actually have the models to summon them.

I've been thinking about doing this to get around the fact that I have more Flesh Hounds than can fit in a 2K Matched Play list. And I prefer running them MSU, too, so that's way beyond the Rule of 3. Karanak's nice and cheap and fast, tho, so I can use him, have him Advance on Turn 1, and then just sit behind a screen Summoning more Hounds for a while. Maybe use a Herald on Juggernaut as well, just to give me a second Summoning point.

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59 minutes ago, WestRider said:

I've been thinking about doing this to get around the fact that I have more Flesh Hounds than can fit in a 2K Matched Play list. And I prefer running them MSU, too, so that's way beyond the Rule of 3. Karanak's nice and cheap and fast, tho, so I can use him, have him Advance on Turn 1, and then just sit behind a screen Summoning more Hounds for a while. Maybe use a Herald on Juggernaut as well, just to give me a second Summoning point.

Except that if they summon, they can't move. Not moving for a turn with most of the Chaos characters really hurts them. Karanak and a jugger herald are both melee units. Kinda have to give up a turn or two of potential melee in order to summon things.

Even without the matched play reinforcement costs, there are certain limitations to summoning. 

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1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Except that if they summon, they can't move. Not moving for a turn with most of the Chaos characters really hurts them. Karanak and a jugger herald are both melee units. Kinda have to give up a turn or two of potential melee in order to summon things.

Even without the matched play reinforcement costs, there are certain limitations to summoning. 

Karanak is only 70 Points. I feel OK spending that Points investment on a couple of Turns with him sitting there summoning more dogs and maybe Denying a few Psychic Powers. The Jugger Herald is 100, but that's still fairly cheap. They both have Aura buffs I can daisy-chain back to as well.

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This is a good discussion. In my games where I set aside points for daemon summoning I also often find I'd rather keep my CSM characters moving during the movement phase.

 

However, in many of my games this year I've been taking Renegades and Heretics alongside my Chaos Marines. Aside from Russes, Sentinels, and Marauders the R&H underperform, but that's another thread.

But I've been rhinking about using the R&H Renegade Commanders as a base for some Turn 2 summoning. On Turn 1, run 1 up each flank. Enemy snipers always ignores them and shoot my CSM characters, Deffy, or  my Zerkers' Rhino on Turn 1 anyway. Then on Turn 2 they start summoning! This would leave my CSM characters free to keep keep moving during their movement phase. It would also make Renegade Commanders Dnegrah and Vicious Pete (currently a useless tax) quite useful!

 

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2 hours ago, Tallarn Commander said:

This is a good discussion. In my games where I set aside points for daemon summoning I also often find I'd rather keep my CSM characters moving during the movement phase.

 

However, in many of my games this year I've been taking Renegades and Heretics alongside my Chaos Marines. Aside from Russes, Sentinels, and Marauders the R&H underperform, but that's another thread.

But I've been rhinking about using the R&H Renegade Commanders as a base for some Turn 2 summoning. On Turn 1, run 1 up each flank. Enemy snipers always ignores them and shoot my CSM characters, Deffy, or  my Zerkers' Rhino on Turn 1 anyway. Then on Turn 2 they start summoning! This would leave my CSM characters free to keep keep moving during their movement phase. It would also make Renegade Commanders Dnegrah and Vicious Pete (currently a useless tax) quite useful!

 

Oh man this is brilliant!

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On a note with summoning, haven't gotten the models to try, but I keep thinking those Skull Cannons of Khorne are a rather unique summoning option - it's a mid-long range weapon platform with what is basically a sub-par krak missile launcher. A good summon option if more melee won't really help your army against the current opponent, or you just need more anti-tank on the table.

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20 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

On a note with summoning, haven't gotten the models to try, but I keep thinking those Skull Cannons of Khorne are a rather unique summoning option - it's a mid-long range weapon platform with what is basically a sub-par krak missile launcher. A good summon option if more melee won't really help your army against the current opponent, or you just need more anti-tank on the table.

Confetti cannons? I would not specifically invest in them for the option... I think ’letters could actually put more damage down on a tank.

 

That said if you already own them yeah go ahead and give them a try.

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1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

Confetti cannons? I would not specifically invest in them for the option... I think ’letters could actually put more damage down on a tank.

 

That said if you already own them yeah go ahead and give them a try.

Yes and no.

I agree the overall damage output is better on letters and many other khorne melee units. And I also think that in list creation, so many better option than the cannons for ranged combat for chaos.

But, if you already have 300pts set aside for reinforcements, and the opponent shows with aircraft, or strong close-range DS defenses, or just too much long range where your summoned units will just die without being able to charge - in that niche - you can summon cannons to shoot.

Remember that the key advantage to reinforcements is that you don't have to pick them until you summon them. They aren't part of your list. So 300pts could be letters in one game and cannons in another game.

And, for the record, the "confetti" cannon is a 90pt (5pl) BS 3+ model with a 48" range heavy d6 S8 ap-2 d3 damage and ignores cover. It's T7 W7 and 3+/5++. And it's decent in melee with actual melee weapons.

That's better than a tactical squad with a missile launcher. Still nothing amazing, but if your list really needs more shooting and you already have reinforcement points sitting around, it's a strong option to have in your toolbox. And PL 5 means summoning is reliable on two dice.

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I think VonVilkee was saying more "It's probably not worth it to go over to the store and drop real dollars on Skull Cannon kits specifically for this purpose, but if you already have some, give it a try."

Also, the gun is more comparable to a Battle Cannon than a Missile Launcher, really.

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58 minutes ago, WestRider said:

I think VonVilkee was saying more "It's probably not worth it to go over to the store and drop real dollars on Skull Cannon kits specifically for this purpose, but if you already have some, give it a try."

Also, the gun is more comparable to a Battle Cannon than a Missile Launcher, really.

Yep this.

 

Best use I've seen for skull cannons is actually back field objective scoring. They are some of the toughest to kill options for the points and quite hidable!

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Well thanks to Pretre, I now have lots of Slaanesh daemons, including the super sweet Keeper of Secrets. I didn't really want a daemon army.,.which I don't have enough for, but I will now have a few different options for summoning for my army. I'm still not thrilled with the whole "pay for units that might not get to come on". But also don't think the powerlevel version of "summon all you want" works either. Perhaps they should have just costed the characters a bit more to account for the possibility of summoning in a unit. Not sure. But I do like the models and now I have even more to paint. Ugh.

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13 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

Well thanks to Pretre, I now have lots of Slaanesh daemons, including the super sweet Keeper of Secrets. I didn't really want a daemon army.,.which I don't have enough for, but I will now have a few different options for summoning for my army. I'm still not thrilled with the whole "pay for units that might not get to come on". But also don't think the powerlevel version of "summon all you want" works either. Perhaps they should have just costed the characters a bit more to account for the possibility of summoning in a unit. Not sure. But I do like the models and now I have even more to paint. Ugh.

Well, you don't pay for the units in advance, you just have to set aside genaric points. When you summon, you can pick any unit, provided you meet the power level on the summon and the summon just deducts from your set aside points. 

So you set aside 300pts, not 10 daemonettes and a keeper. During the game you could just keep summoning those daemonettes, get them destroyed, and then summon the same models (each being considered a new unit). You can also summon a bigger unit at the higher power level cost listed for the bigger unit. 

Means that you could probably get by with a 1500pt list that just re-uses 500pts of models to meet the 2k list requirement at an event...

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3 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

So if I lose a summoned unit, their points go back into my pool to be used again?

No, unfortunately.

My point is that the summoned models don't need to be picked during list creation. And furthermore, that you could summon any models you have that aren't in play, so a small collection of daemons could be re-summoned as new units when they die, rather than actually owning tons and tons of daemons.

 

Hard with your points because I don't really know your army, but for my khorne, I set 300pts aside for reinforcements leaving me 1700pts for my army in a 2k game. Let's say I play 3 games.

First game I feel I need more range, so I summon 3x Skull Cannons at 90pts each (leaving 30pts of reinforcements as unfortunate waste).

Game 2, I feel I need more psychic defense, so I summon Flesh hounds. I can summon 4x units of 5 models, or 2x units of 10 models, though key here is that the power level goes up if you increase the summoned unit size, which affects the roll I need for summoning.

Game 3, Maybe I feel I need more infantry. I can summon 2x units of 20 bloodletters, or 4x units of 10 bloodletters. Maybe I only own 20 bloodletters, so I could summon a unit of 20 models, and then wait for my opponent to thin them enough where I can reuse those same models to summon a "fresh" unit of 10-20 bloodletters (using the same models from the deceased bloodletter unit).

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Okay, so been a while since my last update. I really need to do a blog post on this. Anyways, I worked on painting more of the force (pics soon on blog) and I've ended up collecting a bit more and a little bit of it went off the plan.

So thanks to the Devil...I mean Pretre... I now own a Keeper of Secrets, some Fiends, Seekers, and Deamonettes. This gives me all sorts of options for summoning. I have also been able to snag my warp talons, a lord discordant, and the new havocs (yay!).

Through a handy trade, I got the chaos lord with hammer, a few more chaos marines, and some cultists. About the only thing I was missing from my original list are more chaos marines (and I'm being really picky to only get the latest models) and some terminators.

I easily have my 100 PowerLevel points for the army. I'm not quite how many points for matched play it would be.

Question, now that I have an entire patrol worth of deamons, can I simply add a deamon patrol detatchment and it doesn't screw up the additional rules for the CSM detatchments?

 

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46 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Oh and one last thing. To Rhino or not to Rhino?

What do you want the rhino to do?

Characters embarked can't summon, nor can they the turn they disembark. It's a transport, but no longer has any firepoints so embarked units essentially waste their shooting/psychic/Fight phase while embarked. It can take a combi-weapon and a havoc launcher, but if looking for shooting, so many better shooting options elsewhere in the codex. And as a transport, it's only marginally faster than advancing your marines normally.

Rhinos also blocks line of sight pretty well.

 

Rhinos have their roles, but make sure they can do what your army needs them to do.

 

As a financial caution, since GW seems to be canning the old models, I suggest buying a used rhino, or no getting one at all. They'll probably be discontinuing this guy in the near future.

 

EDIT: Oh, don't forget that you can't disembark if there isn't space to do so. Like because your rhino is surrounded by genestealers. Not being able to disembark means your embarked unit counts as destroyed if their transport is destroyed. Something to keep in mind when facing hordes and other melee armies.

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45 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Question, now that I have an entire patrol worth of deamons, can I simply add a deamon patrol detatchment and it doesn't screw up the additional rules for the CSM detatchments?

So if you are summoning, they don't use the detachment rules at all. Instead, summoned units are each their own detachment of that unit only.

Alternatively, yes, you can just include a patrol of daemons with your other detachments. This does mean you have to deploy them normally - you can't summon them. On the other hand, since the patrol is battleforged, there are bonuses for a battleforged detachment of daemons, and the daemons are eligible for their relics (can't take relics on the summoned daemons as far as I know).

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10 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Can anyone explain why the Hellbrute does not have the deamonic engine tag on it?

Same reason the hellbrute doesn't have the Daemon tag, and the same reason the hellbrute does have hereticus astartes keyword. Daemonic engines are made with daemons, hellbrutes are made with marines.

 

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1 minute ago, Brother Glacius said:

Well looking at the model, there's a whole lot more flesh on that thing than a marine has...so it looks pretty deamonic to me. 🙂

Part of it is just that GW made an earlier kit, which that one replaced. The old, Chaos Dreadnought, which got renamed "Hellbrute" a few codex ago, looked more like it should. But the new model does look quite good and has more options than the previous one, so it was definitely a welcome change.

As for the "flesh" look, that's up to the painter in many respects. You could paint the flesh to look like stylized metal plating or it could be flesh or something else entirely. The different legions would likely have different approaches to their tech, but chaos definitely likes making their stuff look daemonic, possibly more than it really is. Like scary samurai helms, you don't have to portray it as mutation or flesh, it could just be part of making their armor look fearsome.

 

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The current Hellbrute Model represents one that has been heavily mutated and warped, but it's still fundamentally a Chaos Marine wired into a machine. Same as a lot of depictions of Chaos Marines themselves show them with warped armour and various mutations, but they're still distinct from actual Possessed Marines, who do get the Daemon Keyword.

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