InfestedKerrigan Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 Exactly. If someone tells me they want to play by ITC rules, it is creating an implicit social contract for tourny practice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, VonVilkee said: False! ITC is literally tourney, it stands for Independent Tournament Circuit. It is players wanting to practice so much that has bought it to the weekly what have you games. ITC should never be casual play, saying it is would be like playing Ard Boyz casually. Could it happen yes? Did it in those bygone days? Nope. This is down to the contract between players and that some players want to play ITC and some don't. Edit: and a third group not caring/just wanting a game. The ITC guys just ask more often and then it follows that ITC is played more often. new page quote cuz spot on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, VonVilkee said: False! ITC is literally tourney, it stands for Independent Tournament Circuit. I've mentioned this a few times, my exposure to ITC in 8e is exclusively non-tournament. Just because ITC brands itself as tournament, doesn't mean other players/groups don't use it outside of tournaments. The GG league is entirely ITC. It didn't used to be, but it is now. It's not a tournament, it's a league. And, as mentioned before, I've seen casual players playing ITC because they aren't aware that there's another way to play 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Exactly. If someone tells me they want to play by ITC rules, it is creating an implicit social contract for tourny practice. Quite often, I encounter players who are entirely unaware that the ITC rules/missions are NOT normal 40k for 8e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, paxmiles said: Quite often, I encounter players who are entirely unaware that the ITC rules/missions are NOT normal 40k for 8e. Which is why I'm trying to educate you so you can turn back the tide in your area my man. ITC is only a circuit the Frontline gaming guys added a few "house rules" and put together a generic tournament pack. Gamers are lazy and started referring to it as ITC. ITC is only a tournament circuit, report to them and get your players points, bigger turn out better points for the leader board. As a tournament organizer you can actually run whatever crazy style event you want as long as there is a ranking to the final standings submit it for points. That is actually ITC. Their house rules apply at their event and they made them available freely to others to use. It then took off cuz competition loves consistency. Once there was heavy consistency in tournaments, the general player pack started to see use in practice games, which lead to pickup games, which lead to this, in the Portland area anyway, casual gaming use of tournament rules. I love seeing casual gamers avoid using ITC norms as it allows those more competitive players know that it is either a game to dial back and just have fun or to find someone to actually sharpen their skills with. Those that abuse ITC norms would just abuse the book rules too but funny thing about the book rules is that they are harder to abuse due to the sheer variance of missions and scoring... Avoid getting tabled and it is really anybody's game. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: Which is why I'm trying to educate you so you can turn back the tide in your area my man. ITC is only a circuit the Frontline gaming guys added a few "house rules" and put together a generic tournament pack. Gamers are lazy and started referring to it as ITC. ITC is only a tournament circuit, report to them and get your players points, bigger turn out better points for the leader board. As a tournament organizer you can actually run whatever crazy style event you want as long as there is a ranking to the final standings submit it for points. That is actually ITC. Their house rules apply at their event and they made them available freely to others to use. It then took off cuz competition loves consistency. Once there was heavy consistency in tournaments, the general player pack started to see use in practice games, which lead to pickup games, which lead to this, in the Portland area anyway, casual gaming use of tournament rules. I love seeing casual gamers avoid using ITC norms as it allows those more competitive players know that it is either a game to dial back and just have fun or to find someone to actually sharpen their skills with. Those that abuse ITC norms would just abuse the book rules too but funny thing about the book rules is that they are harder to abuse due to the sheer variance of missions and scoring... Avoid getting tabled and it is really anybody's game. IF ITC players could "dial down" their casual play, then I would never apply the term WAAC to ITC players. That is the entirety of my issue. Yes, ITC doesn't always mean WAAC, but if all the ITC players dialed down their desire to win in the casual setting, I don't see how WAAC would apply to any of them. That said, pretty sure our GG league does submit stuff for leaderboards, despite it being a mostly unsupervised league that uses the honor system to report wins and losses. Not really an Organized event, our league we had prior to ITC was more organized (the one Joel was running). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 When a more casual player agrees to ITC it is a different social contract... Gamers have never been good at clearly communicating with one another. Infested was totally right with the Goodwin principal thing. Edit: I think I'm actually gonna walk away now, feeling satisfied that if others read through this they will have a better understanding of ITC than what was spouted in ignorance. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, VonVilkee said: When a more casual player agrees to ITC it is a different social contract... Gamers have never been good at clearly communicating with one another. Infested was totally right with the Goodwin principal thing. It's not one way. If an ITC agrees to play casually, why aren't they expected to? And where exactly is the line between ITC and WAAC that we are agreeing to in this unwritten, unspoken, social contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 WAAC is a player mentality. As has been stated previously, ITC is a tournament environment. As has been stated previously, such environments bring out the competitive individuals en masse. As has been stated previously, the more casual the player, the easier it is to perceive a competitive player as WAAC. Applying WAAC is subjective. ITC is an objective (if biased) guideline. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said: As has been stated previously, ITC is a tournament environment. As has been stated previously, such environments bring out the competitive individuals en masse. As has been stated previously, the more casual the player, the easier it is to perceive a competitive player as WAAC. Applying WAAC is subjective. ITC is an objective (if biased) guideline. As stated before, I have no issues with ITC players being tournament players in ITC tournaments. But I think it's BS if you bring your ITC game to a casual setting and insist that your attitude is because of some unwritten and unspoken social contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 "Do you want to play a game? ITC rules cool?" Nah, man, I'm more of a laid back player. I like fun pick up games using this fabulous deck of cards GW made! That work for you? Also, sounds like a personality conflict for you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 On 9/16/2019 at 10:07 PM, Sugarlessllama said: Here is why I like ITC: is my opponent mentions wanting an ITC game, I pack my army back into the case and walk away. I hate competitive 40K. It never made sense to me, especially when there are wargames out that do it better (warmahordes and malifaux come to mind). So if someone states their intention to play an ITC groin kicker franken-army then I can save myself the time. @InfestedKerrigan this^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 16 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Also, sounds like a personality conflict for you. @paxmiles this^ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 17 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Also, sounds like a personality conflict for you. I don't like the WAAC personality....So, yes, but I thought that was obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blustorm Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 Alright, it seems like this discussion has run its course and the thread is devolving into people taking pot shots. I'm going to just go ahead and lock it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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