Warhammer Legends...

[Guest]

Quote

“With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends.

Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered.

Every year, we review all of the points values (for all of the units) in Warhammer 40,000. We won’t be doing this for the Warhammer Legends, though. Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process. Of course, organisers are also free to run Legends events, allowing the use of the full classic range in their games. “

In other words, they're tired of supporting models they don't want to sell, they don't want to update them or give them functional rules, they want them gone - but they *claim* to support their old model lines, so their solution is to officially allow them, but then tell people not to allow you to use them.

While I accept that many people don't appreciate the old models, the larger issue is GW discontinuing support for products that they sold rather recently for this game. It's a bad precedence for 40k. Means that they think it's okay to evict your purchases from the game. Also means the resale value of old models will likely go down, making your old armies less valuable.

https://spikeybits.com/2019/08/your-old-units-have-a-new-home-warhammer-legends.html

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/780061.page;jsessionid=AB21E84AC1D10D9B1BFA146B2A2CEF02#10564348

https://medium.com/@chrisngx/why-warhammer-legends-for-40k-is-a-big-deal-8b5060bf7bef

Can't seem to find this on the GW site, though someone showed me it on the site, just can't find it again....

 

[WestRider]

It's on the Warhammer Community site, not the main GW one. At the end of the post with the NOVA reveals.

This is one of those things where, for all practical purposes, the decision is going to be made by Tournament Organizers. If enough of them run Legends-friendly events, it really won't matter much. If those are rare, people will tend to follow suit in that case, too.

I'm not a fan of it, myself, since I have plenty of Models getting hit by it, but there isn't a whole lot I can do, so I'm just going to wait and see how it goes.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WestRider said:

This is one of those things where, for all practical purposes, the decision is going to be made by Tournament Organizers. If enough of them run Legends-friendly events, it really won't matter much. If those are rare, people will tend to follow suit in that case, too.

The issue is more that GW can purposely give them bad rules or unreasonably high point costs. And then it's not a matter of needing to support them at events because people will field what works regardless of what models are used.

And it's not like GW can't fix these old models to make new versions of them. A chappy is basically a skull head and an arm of difference. They could easily have updated any one of their bike kits to include those bits and have a biker chappy, but instead they choose to make the kit obsolete.

And GW models compete only with GW models and GW rules. If something isn't selling well enough, it's because GW doesn't really want it to sell (or because they are completely out of touch, though that's more of a past issue).

[WestRider]

Oh, absolutely there are other ways they could have handled this. I'm just talking about what is likely to happen moving on from what they actually did decide to do.

[Lord Hanaur]

ho boy.

[VonVilkee]

While I look at this as what is better for the game... While they could write legit rules for some of those units is it good to do so? A buffing character who has an aura moving that fast is hard to point out. His stats aren't that good but the aura can be super good positioned correctly. That bike is super valuable cost would need to be high but then it probably wouldn't sell as well.

 

I totally get the decision not to build a new kit for it adding a sku to the wall for something that may or may not sell well at the points cost. Zipping around at those speeds with his buffing is crazy just like the Libby. Being able to position for those mortal wounds...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

While I look at this as what is better for the game... While they could write legit rules for some of those units is it good to do so? A buffing character who has an aura moving that fast is hard to point out. His stats aren't that good but the aura can be super good positioned correctly. That bike is super valuable cost would need to be high but then it probably wouldn't sell as well.

 

I totally get the decision not to build a new kit for it adding a sku to the wall for something that may or may not sell well at the points cost. Zipping around at those speeds with his buffing is crazy just like the Libby. Being able to position for those mortal wounds...

Well, rules balance, it's not really more powerful than stuff that already exists.

I think the more likely reason is that GW wants the new primaries Marines to phase out the other Marines and that means removing the viable components of the regular Marines.

Either the primaris chappy isn't selling enough or GW plans a similar model that this chappy would compete against too closely.

[Lord Hanaur]

I mean...  they'll put out a DOZEN rarely if ever used models and rules in boxed sets but...cant be bothered...  with rules for these?  Le sigh

[WestRider]

5 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

While I look at this as what is better for the game... While they could write legit rules for some of those units is it good to do so? A buffing character who has an aura moving that fast is hard to point out. His stats aren't that good but the aura can be super good positioned correctly. That bike is super valuable cost would need to be high but then it probably wouldn't sell as well.

 

I totally get the decision not to build a new kit for it adding a sku to the wall for something that may or may not sell well at the points cost. Zipping around at those speeds with his buffing is crazy just like the Libby. Being able to position for those mortal wounds...

He can still get a Jump Pack, which brings up all the same Rules issues. The shelf space is a different matter, yeah.

There are a few that particularly get me. Like the Heralds of Slaanesh on Steed and on Chariot. Khorne and Tzeentch both have fast Heralds, so rules/balance are clearly not the issue. They could even just add a thing on the website that says "One of the Models may be assembled as a Herald on Steed" to the Seekers box, so there's no need for another clampack there. And the Chariot is a currently available kit, that says in the directions that it can be built as a Herald, but has no 40K Rules for it.

[VonVilkee]

Hmmmm didn't know about the herald stuff but there is a big difference between jump packs and bikes...

Bikes when advancing get auto 6” and you are getting a little tougher...

[Guest]

6 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

Hmmmm didn't know about the herald stuff but there is a big difference between jump packs and bikes...

Bikes when advancing get auto 6” and you are getting a little tougher...

JPs can also enter transports, are infantry, and have the FLY keyword. Bikes are different, but hardly better. But profile-wise, JP chappy is faster, but weaker than the biker or the primaris chappy.

I think the issue GW sees is that the biker chappy is all around better than the primaris chappy and GW doesn't want us using non-primaris Marines anymore.

[VonVilkee]

Jump packs can NOT enter most transports.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

Jump packs can NOT enter most transports.

8e, jp infantry can ride any land raider, any building, and any storm Raven.

Only ones they can't enter are rhino variants.

No drop pods, but it would be redundant there since they can already deep strike. No storms or repulsors, but your jp chappy can't be in either even if they weren't jp. Oh, and they can't be in the Dreadnought drop pod...

[VonVilkee]

15 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

8e, jp infantry can ride any land raider, any building, and any storm Raven.

Only ones they can't enter are rhino variants.

No drop pods, but it would be redundant there since they can already deep strike. No storms or repulsors, but your jp chappy can't be in either even if they weren't jp. Oh, and they can't be in the Dreadnought drop pod...

Okay most transports that matter... Land raiders pshaw 

[Guest]

Hmm...I suppose the other reason for GW to ditch the indexes is because they keep getting criticized for how many books are required for this edition. So their solution is to drop support for several books...

I still don't understand why GW couldn't be bothered to just include all the index units in the new codex.

And don't forget that removal of index also means that several codex units won't be able to take as many options as they currently do. For my DA, this means no more storm shields for chappies or libbies in terminator armor. While I think my opponents will like this, it's a rather significant functionality loss for my army, and DA doesn't have access to cheesy invulnerable save granting relics, unlike many of the other loyalist armies.

 

[Guest]

And regarding the primaris chappy vs the biker chappy, the deal is that, at least until recently, GW hasn't provided Primaris marines with decent transports. So if comparing chappies, the biker chappy is better all around. Now when comparing either to a JP chappy, you'll note that the JP chappy has only 4 wounds, while both the biker and the primaris have 5. And the cost difference between the primaris and biker is only about 20pts for superior speed, toughness, equal wounds and equal abilities, and thanks to the updated bolter rule, the biker even has better shooting.

I really think the problem here is that GW is trying to sell Primaris Chappies and the biker impedes their sales. Why they didn't just start with a Primaris chappy on a bike....

The only reason you'd want a primaris chappy is if you planned to put them inside a transport - and that's why GW is canning all units in opposition to their primaris chappy.

 

[WestRider]

18 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I still don't understand why GW couldn't be bothered to just include all the index units in the new codex.

Because they don't want new Players to look in a Codex and see anything that they can't buy off the GW Website. It's a business decision, not a game-based decision.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Because they don't want new Players to look in a Codex and see anything that they can't buy off the GW Website. It's a business decision, not a game-based decision.

Yeah, maybe with the initial codex. But they've had time to update their kits and they haven't. And most of the index stuff doesn't require huge effort on their behalf to incorporate into 40k.

I mean, only recently did they decide that the rhino and the razorback should be marketed at as single kit...

And we got a whole bunch of new primaris stuff, which is great, but instead of bringing the past up to speed...

 

I mean, a chappy is just a skull head and a club apart from any other marine...and the Mk3 version doesn't even have a skull head. Those SM bikes haven't been updated since I started playing 40k, but they still sell. We even got a bunch of shoulder pads for each chapter as upgrade sprues, but GW couldn't be bothered to make a chappy upgrade set.

 

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Yeah, maybe with the initial codex. But they've had time to update their kits and they haven't. And most of the index stuff doesn't require huge effort on their behalf to incorporate into 40k.

I mean, only recently did they decide that the rhino and the razorback should be marketed at as single kit...

And we got a whole bunch of new primaris stuff, which is great, but instead of bringing the past up to speed...

 

I mean, a chappy is just a skull head and a club apart from any other marine...and the Mk3 version doesn't even have a skull head. Those SM bikes haven't been updated since I started playing 40k, but they still sell. We even got a bunch of shoulder pads for each chapter as upgrade sprues, but GW couldn't be bothered to make a chappy upgrade set.

 

Molds for plastic Models are a huge investment. It's not a simple matter to just put something out there, unless they know it's going to sell well*. That's why Characters have such ludicrous price points: They need to recoup the investment on Model Design, Molds, and overhead, and those sell at a relatively low volume. And another corollary is that GW doesn't want a $10 Chaplain Upgrade Sprue undercutting their $35 Chaplain Model that cost almost as much to make the mold for.

There are different ways they could have approached any aspect of this. But given the decisions that were made by groups within the company that have greater authority than the Rules team (e.g. Marketing, Model Design), the Rules Team has been forced into a pretty awkward place, and this seemed like the most viable option to them.

*Or is a Primaris Lieutenant, for whatever reason.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

Molds for plastic Models are a huge investment. It's not a simple matter to just put something out there, unless they know it's going to sell well*. That's why Characters have such ludicrous price points: They need to recoup the investment on Model Design, Molds, and overhead, and those sell at a relatively low volume. And another corollary is that GW doesn't want a $10 Chaplain Upgrade Sprue undercutting their $35 Chaplain Model that cost almost as much to make the mold for.

There are different ways they could have approached any aspect of this. But given the decisions that were made by groups within the company that have greater authority than the Rules team (e.g. Marketing, Model Design), the Rules Team has been forced into a pretty awkward place, and this seemed like the most viable option to them.

*Or is a Primaris Lieutenant, for whatever reason.

There's no logical reason for GW to even make a chaplain kit when it's a small upgrade off of a normal marine. A torso front, an arm, and a head included in a basic tactical marine kit is all they needed. They choose not to add a chaplain model on any number of occasions when they created new marine kits.

And it's not just chaplains, any number of the GW characters could easily be included in an existing kit. They are choosing to sell them as separate models and choosing to have old versions go obsolete.

And for proof of concept, the DA terminator kit officially includes 3x character options, as well as 2 different units.

Meanwhile, many current GW units for my Dark Angels that are in the codex still lack current models.

[Guest]

Anyway, it's their game, their choice. Just bugs me.

It's like you're reading a book where the hero is really evil, so they create a "more" evil antagonist to justify the actions of their protagonist. The Author is creating both, so really it's that the author is choosing to write about evil. The author isn't really competing against anything, they control the setting, characters, and plot, so the presence or lack of evil is entirely up to them.

40k doesn't really compete with anything that GW doesn't already control. Making things sell, or not sell, is really up to them - within the confines of their player base, certainly, but they aren't really competing with anyone. And most of their players will continue playing no matter what GW does. Marines get compared to other marines and other armies, but these are all GW.

So when they drop support for stuff and claim it's because the models don't sell or have crappy rules interactions or aren't current kits, it bugs me because it is entirely within their control and they are choosing to have them resolve like this. GW's model line and rules is a controlled environment. New editions become needed because GW sabotages a ruleset to create the need to create an updated ruleset.

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

There's no logical reason for GW to even make a chaplain kit when it's a small upgrade off of a normal marine. A torso front, an arm, and a head included in a basic tactical marine kit is all they needed. They choose not to add a chaplain model on any number of occasions when they created new marine kits.

And it's not just chaplains, any number of the GW characters could easily be included in an existing kit. They are choosing to sell them as separate models and choosing to have old versions go obsolete.

And for proof of concept, the DA terminator kit officially includes 3x character options, as well as 2 different units.

Meanwhile, many current GW units for my Dark Angels that are in the codex still lack current models.

There is a logical reason for them to have not done that. I don't know what it is, since I'm not privy to their business decisions, but a couple of possibilities are that it was determined that this approach would likely make more money, or that the aesthetic of Models that are designed from the start to be one thing, rather than being totally modular, is more in line with their vision of making the best Wargaming Models in the world. Or both.

Don't get me wrong. I would vastly prefer that approach. I love the Space Marine Commander box, and I have always wished that they'd expanded that concept to other Character types. But this is what they have chosen to do. They're really the ones with most of the power here, and our choices are mostly limited to choosing whether or not to keep giving them our money.

A bunch of bolding because that really is the key point there. We can't know their reasons, only the resulting choices.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, WestRider said:

They're really the ones with most of the power here, and our choices are mostly limited to choosing whether or not to keep giving them our money.

I think that's the weak point of the modern business. It puts them into a position where they either fail or succeed, rather than being able to learn as they progress.

[Sugarlessllama]

I for one welcome the change. 

[Guest]

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