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paxmiles

9th age Khorne Daemons

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13 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Having trouble understanding the Daemonic Legions and how they relate to the models and.to the vice aspects.

Is Khorne Wrath? Or is the diety way of thinking obsolete with the 9th age Daemonic Legions?

You can certainly associate GW models with some of the Daemon Legion units, but since they split it up into 7 gods instead of 4, it isn't necessarily a direct correlation. Also, only the characters are tied directly to their specific gods, while all the other units are able to take Manifestations from multiple different gods.

Would Wrath = Khorne? Probably. Vanadra's Scourge is probably meant to be a Bloodthirster, the Maw of Akaan probably meant to be a Great Unclean One. The core choices all harken back to the GW core demons: Imps = Horros, Succubi = Demonettes, Lemures = Plaguebearers, Myrmidons = Bloodletters.  

...but none of this is set in stone. Who's to say what a Succubus with a Manifestation of Greed looks like?

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13 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

You can certainly associate GW models with some of the Daemon Legion units, but since they split it up into 7 gods instead of 4, it isn't necessarily a direct correlation. Also, only the characters are tied directly to their specific gods, while all the other units are able to take Manifestations from multiple different gods.

Would Wrath = Khorne? Probably. Vanadra's Scourge is probably meant to be a Bloodthirster, the Maw of Akaan probably meant to be a Great Unclean One. The core choices all harken back to the GW core demons: Imps = Horros, Succubi = Demonettes, Lemures = Plaguebearers, Myrmidons = Bloodletters.  

...but none of this is set in stone. Who's to say what a Succubus with a Manifestation of Greed looks like?

Thanks. Yeah, thinking of it in WHFB terms is giving me a headache.

So I should treat it as an entirely new army that just can use the old models?

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1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Thanks. Yeah, thinking of it in WHFB terms is giving me a headache.

So I should treat it as an entirely new army that just can use the old models?

That's how I would approach it. I also think the Mantic Nightstalkers / Forces of the Abyss lines have a lot of potential for this army as well.

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7 hours ago, Andrewgeddon said:

I also think the Mantic Nightstalkers / Forces of the Abyss lines have a lot of potential for this army as well.

I've gotten some of their stuff in the past and don't appreciate the model quality. That said, there are quite a few non-GW companies I've found that I do like the models of and would work well for this.

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On 9/23/2019 at 9:50 PM, Andrewgeddon said:

Would Wrath = Khorne? Probably. Vanadra's Scourge is probably meant to be a Bloodthirster, the Maw of Akaan probably meant to be a Great Unclean One. The core choices all harken back to the GW core demons: Imps = Horros, Succubi = Demonettes, Lemures = Plaguebearers, Myrmidons = Bloodletters.  
 

What's funny is I'd say the Great Unclean One's successor is the Miser of Greed. Looking at the description. Almost all daemon entries have a progenitor

For me and my daemons in WH I ran a multi-god, army heavy on Bloodletters and Daemonettes with no greater daemon. I've been adapting my army a lot, and frankly mostly just playing Orcs. I'm assembling Mantic Nightstalkers to be Lemures (a little bad quality is okay for these kind of units that are almost daemonic undead). I then have.... I forgot the brand for Clawed Fiends.

For the DL, at least ruleswise. Godly alignment is a matter of your choice of Greater Daemon. Which Greater Daemon you choose as your general affects which upgrades can be chosen by your Heralds of Chaos (which for me is of premier importance as I like my buffed 'infantry' units). All the non-character units say the Brazen Beasts (descendants of Khorne Juggernaughts) or Hell Hounds (descendants of Flesh Hounds) have upgrades that are given a little watermark for sin, but those aren't restricted by which Godly alignment you take, instead they heavily influence what they are good/great at and what their cost is. Some of the entries in Special are MORE aligned with a specific god, but this is not meant as a restriction, as that could be very restrictive with there now being 7 gods instead of 4.

And if you were looking for more of a fluff feel. The 7 Gods under Father Chaos are less 4 titans gridlocked in an Immortal Game as seven brothers and sisters in competition and rivalry. Chaos daemons are not inexorably wed to their patron god, but instead are born of their realm/being. These lesser daemons are than bound into service by more powerful daemons which can at times marshal a Legion and sally forth into the land of mortals. So having a Wrath greater daemon assembling an army with vicious Myrmidons (Bloodletters), brutal Brazen Beasts (Juggernaughts), but also suffocating Hoarders (Beasts of Nurgle? this one's awkward honestly) makes perfect sense.

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Starting this project, slowly.

Plan is focused on the Siege Tower usage, which requires those big bases. Hope Harvesters with Engine of Destruction upgrade. These models are 0-2 unless I have a "gigantic" character, then they become 0-1. Since I want to bring 2, this means no Gigantic characters. This, in turn, means no greater daemon HQs. So plan is a herald army.

Very general list idea is two of the towers, 90 or so bloodletters (3 blocks), and herald HQs. I'll be putting some rams in the Bloodletter blocks as sort of a filler unit (model count should still be right, just on one base). Also plan to put bloodletters in the Towers, like actually part of the model, plus a big bloodletter/prince with a "Warpsword" and some sort of cannon.

I already have some Orcs painted as bloodletters, but I think I'm also going to use actual bloodletters, plus a mix of other daemon-like models. Just all mixed in together.

Still, really long project. Dunno if I'll finish. Presently, I just have the siege stuff unassembled and maybe 20-30 bloodletters, so this is going to be a very slow, rather expensive project.

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Pride, envy and sloth can be non gigantic. They are also currently well regarded picks. I don't have the most personal experience to relate as a lack of playing daemons for the last year.

Triple units of Myrmidons will give you a nice infantry center. Infantry also have a lot to gain from a Herald with a Guiding Manifestation. Heralds gain access to Manifestations based on the general. So just using the examples that are not Gigantic we have Envy (Poison Attacks, +1 armor pen, Reroll first failed charge), Pride (better discipline, vanguard 6'', Hatred), Sloth (enemies have -2 agi, enemies have worse range to charge you), and that's before the generic ones. Also after all of these suggestions, Myrmidons don't even need a character buffer if you want to keep things cheaper. 

Just looking at the book it's quite flexible for different models. Not necessarily everything in the same list, but anything can find a model. I could see a big Prince-y individual being a Greater Daemon or the very-odd Blazing Glory.

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Here's my Goal list:


++ Daemon Legions (Daemon Legions 2.2.2) [4,490pts] ++

+ Characters +

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos: Army General
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

Harbinger of Father Chaos [320pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos: Battle Standard Bearer
. . Manifestations: Character - Iron Husk

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

+ Core +

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

+ Special +

Hope Harvester [435pts]: Engine of Damnation, Unit - Segmented Shell

Hope Harvester [435pts]: Engine of Damnation, Unit - Segmented Shell

++ Total: [4,490pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

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One thing to keep in mind before getting to married to anything is that books are currently getting a round of updates; half were updated earlier this week, the rest (including Demons) are probably next week? It's mostly points adjustments,  and i would count on Demons getting more points drops than increases, based on the data, but there is some room for small design changes.

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2 hours ago, Andrewgeddon said:

One thing to keep in mind before getting to married to anything is that books are currently getting a round of updates; half were updated earlier this week, the rest (including Demons) are probably next week? It's mostly points adjustments,  and i would count on Demons getting more points drops than increases, based on the data, but there is some room for small design changes.

I know, but it gives me a ballpark of how many models I need to paint. That's the main thing.

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22 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Here's my Goal list:


++ Daemon Legions (Daemon Legions 2.2.2) [4,490pts] ++

+ Characters +

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos: Army General
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

Harbinger of Father Chaos [320pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos: Battle Standard Bearer
. . Manifestations: Character - Iron Husk

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

Harbinger of Father Chaos [265pts]
. Harbinger of Father Chaos
. . Manifestations: Character - Hammer Hand, Guiding - Kaleidoscopic Flesh

+ Core +

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

Myrmidons [835pts]: Champion, Musician, 30x Myrmidons, Standard Bearer, Unit - Piercing Spike

+ Special +

Hope Harvester [435pts]: Engine of Damnation, Unit - Segmented Shell

Hope Harvester [435pts]: Engine of Damnation, Unit - Segmented Shell

++ Total: [4,490pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Good stuff!

I look forward to the opportunity to send your demons back to the void.

You are skipping out on the magic phase tho. I would suggest having a wizard simply because the magic phase is a cool part of the game. The hope harvesters do not really take the place of having a wizard, as you will only have at most 3 veil tokens to spend every turn. But, I can for sure respect a no-magic list.

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1 minute ago, TheBeninator said:

Good stuff!

I look forward to the opportunity to send your demons back to the void.

You are skipping out on the magic phase tho. I would suggest having a wizard simply because the magic phase is a cool part of the game. The hope harvesters do not really take the place of having a wizard, as you will only have at most 3 veil tokens to spend every turn. But, I can for sure respect a no-magic list.

Khorne was the idea, so magic is kinda out. Haven't fully read the rules, so not sure how much of a problem this will be. But It'll take me quite a while to get this army up and running, so ruleset might change by then.

Hope harvesters don't really have magic, not sure what your connection there is. They do have an upgrade I didn't take, which helps somehow with magic, but, again, didn't take it.

Hope Harvesters are there because they are one of the few models that could represent my Warhammer Siege Towers on 150x100 bases. And in fairness, I think the name really fits with the siege towers.

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The hope harvesters have a volley gun which can optionally fire unused veil tokens. Veil tokens are primarily used in the magic phase to produce additional power dice for casting magic. So, not taking any casters means you wont have to make the decision between using the veil tokens in the magic phase, or loading them into the muzzle of your volley gun and blasting the veil tokens out at your foes. 

Going no magic can work, you just have a lot less versatility since in T9A, you get to pick your spells after you see your opponent's army. Magic relies on a smaller number of dice rolls, so it is inherently more fickle. Some games it is of no use at all, some games it is the difference between win and lose. There are people who run no-magic lists, it is not all that common, but it is quite doable.

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1 hour ago, TheBeninator said:

The hope harvesters have a volley gun which can optionally fire unused veil tokens. Veil tokens are primarily used in the magic phase to produce additional power dice for casting magic. So, not taking any casters means you wont have to make the decision between using the veil tokens in the magic phase, or loading them into the muzzle of your volley gun and blasting the veil tokens out at your foes. 

Going no magic can work, you just have a lot less versatility since in T9A, you get to pick your spells after you see your opponent's army. Magic relies on a smaller number of dice rolls, so it is inherently more fickle. Some games it is of no use at all, some games it is the difference between win and lose. There are people who run no-magic lists, it is not all that common, but it is quite doable.

If it becomes a problem, I'm pretty sure that the units I'm already planning have wizard-related options. And getting more daemons isn't a real problem AFTER I've already got a standing army. But as is, I've got like 100-ish bloodletters to purchase and paint, and given they sell at $30ish per 10, it'll be a while before I have an army up and running.

And plan is to put actual bloodletters in the siege towers - no empty towers for me. It'll look really cool, but it'll take more time and cost more.

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Let's see, not making big progress on this one. I'm staggered by the cost of getting so many khorne daemons and x-mas is coming, so I'm hesitant to blow my money on this one. Plus I seem to be very distractable on model projects, as of late. I'm second guessing if I want to play this game, or if I just like the idea of having an army for this game.

Another thing, bugs me a lot that I can't just pick a mark for my supposedly generic daemons. Like, each unit and character has a pre-determined set. And none of the sets are really khorne, each is kinda a mix. I guess it's better, probably, but it's deviation from my ideal, which bugs me. And it's annoying because they don't have pre-determined models for these, so it feels "forced" on what is supposed to be more free-form.

For example, I'd love to do a bloodletter commander. Well, my 25mm options are a wizard dedicated to "envy" and non-marked character (whom can't take marks). My bloodthirster, on the otherhand, is forced to be dedicated to "wrath." So my bloodletter commander can't be dedicated to the same mark as my bloodthirster. Not a huge problem, but it bugs me.

My next smallest character option is 50mm square and specifically can't join units. And that one must be dedicated to "pride."

Oh, and the bloodletters (and non-wrath characterrs) lack access to the upgrade/mark that gives them "flaming" attacks, despite the models having flaming swords. Yeah, just annoying. It's like I'm being told to ditch khorne, or play only a very specific army build.

Rules-wise, I kinda feel like daemonic legions would be part of the Order faction in AoS. It's just a very restrictive list, the kinda thing you'd expect from an army with an orderly mindset. Maybe I should start looking at the other army book options again.

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2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Let's see, not making big progress on this one. I'm staggered by the cost of getting so many khorne daemons and x-mas is coming, so I'm hesitant to blow my money on this one. Plus I seem to be very distractable on model projects, as of late. I'm second guessing if I want to play this game, or if I just like the idea of having an army for this game.

Another thing, bugs me a lot that I can't just pick a mark for my supposedly generic daemons. Like, each unit and character has a pre-determined set. And none of the sets are really khorne, each is kinda a mix. I guess it's better, probably, but it's deviation from my ideal, which bugs me. And it's annoying because they don't have pre-determined models for these, so it feels "forced" on what is supposed to be more free-form.

For example, I'd love to do a bloodletter commander. Well, my 25mm options are a wizard dedicated to "envy" and non-marked character (whom can't take marks). My bloodthirster, on the otherhand, is forced to be dedicated to "wrath." So my bloodletter commander can't be dedicated to the same mark as my bloodthirster. Not a huge problem, but it bugs me.

My next smallest character option is 50mm square and specifically can't join units. And that one must be dedicated to "pride."

Oh, and the bloodletters (and non-wrath characters) lack access to the upgrade/mark that gives them "flaming" attacks, despite the models having flaming swords. Yeah, just annoying. It's like I'm being told to ditch khorne, or play only a very specific army build.

Rules-wise, I kinda feel like daemonic legions would be part of the Order faction in AoS. It's just a very restrictive list, the kinda thing you'd expect from an army with an orderly mindset. Maybe I should start looking at the other army book options again.

Well the DL is the newest book. Since T9A is built on the framework of 8th edition, it borrows a lot of legacy concepts from that game. However, in order to not stagnate, it is moving towards a new identity for it's armies. Khorne does not feel like Khorne anymore because Khorne no longer exists. There are other projects that recreated 8th edition lore but just changed a few rules, T9A is different than that.

If what you are really longing for is a Khorne themed army, T9A is probably not the best solution. It is easy to get caught up in the similarities, since a lot of it is totally identical. But as with Warriors of the Dark Gods, DL was completely reworked and is something new. It had to shed it's old pigeon holed identity in order to achieve this. I have mad respects for the old universe, but that just isn't the direction of the game.

I think you may be confused about some of the list building aspects, as you can join a Savar, a Harbinger, or a Deceiver to a unit, in the cast of the Savar it can be the only hero in the unit. In addition, you can get Myrmadons to have flaming attacks if you also have a Harbinger who takes the wrath upgrade which also requires a Wrath GD. Yes, it sort of forces you to go with a "mono-manifestation", but that is how they are balancing the book. You cant just pick the cream of the crop from all the demon manifestations and expect the army to even come close to being balanced.

Conversely, you can skip the Greater Demon and always take manifestations from Father of Chaos to your Harbinger, or from the several manifestations hand picked that are unique to each unit. The number of combinations are staggeringly high.

Balance, whether we like it or not, is one of the primary motivators of why things in the books are the way they are. 

 

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1 hour ago, TheBeninator said:

I think you may be confused about some of the list building aspects, as you can join a Savar, a Harbinger, or a Deceiver to a unit, in the cast of the Savar it can be the only hero in the unit. In addition, you can get Myrmadons to have flaming attacks if you also have a Harbinger who takes the wrath upgrade which also requires a Wrath GD. Yes, it sort of forces you to go with a "mono-manifestation", but that is how they are balancing the book. You cant just pick the cream of the crop from all the demon manifestations and expect the army to even come close to being balanced.

Conversely, you can skip the Greater Demon and always take manifestations from Father of Chaos to your Harbinger, or from the several manifestations hand picked that are unique to each unit. The number of combinations are staggeringly high.

Balance, whether we like it or not, is one of the primary motivators of why things in the books are the way they are.

Hmm...definitely the possibility that I'm misreading things.

Omen of Savar, ah, with closer reading, it can join units, just not with existing characters attached. Interesting. Still can't take flaming attacks, but that is something. Still no wrath access, he's pride.

Harbinger can't take Wrath at all. He's just generic. No access to alternative marks as far as I read it. Could be missing something there. Would solve things if you could explain where I have it wrong.

Deciever is envy. No options there.

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3 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Hmm...definitely the possibility that I'm misreading things.

Omen of Savar, ah, with closer reading, it can join units, just not with existing characters attached. Interesting. Still can't take flaming attacks, but that is something. Still no wrath access, he's pride.

Harbinger can't take Wrath at all. He's just generic. No access to alternative marks as far as I read it. Could be missing something there. Would solve things if you could explain where I have it wrong.

Deciever is envy. No options there.

So as I read it, The Harbinger of Father Chaos can take "Manifestations of Father Chaos and those available to the General"

Vanadra's Scourge can be a general, and has access to Manifestations of Father Chaos and Wrath.

So, Vandras Scorge general allows Harbingers to take Wrath Manifestations, of which if you take the dominant version, pass that manifestation benefit to R&F within the unit.

It is certainly not an inexpensive way to get flaming attacks, but you do get a flying murder machine caster out of the deal.

 

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8 minutes ago, TheBeninator said:

So as I read it, The Harbinger of Father Chaos can take "Manifestations of Father Chaos and those available to the General"

Vanadra's Scourge can be a general, and has access to Manifestations of Father Chaos and Wrath.

So, Vandras Scorge general allows Harbingers to take Wrath Manifestations, of which if you take the dominant version, pass that manifestation benefit to R&F within the unit.

It is certainly not an inexpensive way to get flaming attacks, but you do get a flying murder machine caster out of the deal.

 

That unfortunately limits the 2x Hope Harvest plan for the Siege Towers though.

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22 minutes ago, TheBeninator said:

So as I read it, The Harbinger of Father Chaos can take "Manifestations of Father Chaos and those available to the General"

Wait, so this bit means that the general shares their mark Access?

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20 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

That is correct. Scourge general means Harbinger has access to Wrath marks, and likewise for other god-specific generals.

Really not clearly written. Borrowed that from GW too, I suppose.

 

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1 minute ago, Andrewgeddon said:

Fair enough. I would argue that it is very clearly written.

Either way, now that I know it's supposed to mean that, not a problem. Just like the GW stuff, once you know what it's supposed to say, doesn't really matter what it says.

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