New Player Infinity Question

[Mack]

Keith here with a quick question.  I was thinking of trying  a Nomad Bandit unit,  they seems interesting and I like the models. I can still find individual models in blister packs or the double pack.  The double pack is a better deal, but will I ever use both Bandits at the same time?  I like both sculpts and its only a few dollars more but I'm trying to not have extra miniatures just sitting around my work desk.  

Also, I was looking at the picking up a movement template from warsenal.  I also saw a slightly different version that had the longer side go out to 8 inches so it could also be used to check zone of control.  However, do you think the extra length of the template would make it more of a hassle to use with how much terrain there is on the board?  

 

[Exile]

Units with both CH: Camouflage, and some form of Infiltration (or way to deploy beyond the standard DZ) are very useful for objective missions.  Deploying in the  CH: Camouflage state provides additional defenses, in that the enemy cannot shoot them directly without revealing them using Discover (or them revealing themselves in ARO).

Bandits have both of these skills, and could find a place in your Nomad list, depending on what kind of player you evolve into. 

From a more practical standpoint, in Vanilla Nomads, they are AVA 2, and in Corregidor they are also 2.  And they can also always function as a proxy if you think they look damn cool!

[Raindog]

1) I take two Bandits in Corregidor, but I like my Camo units.

2) I like the Warsenal Zone of Control templates, but your templates have inches on them and built in silhouette 2 templates, they could be more useful overall.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Bandits are one of the best units Nomads have in general, not just Corregidor. You will find a use for the second one, even if only for conversion fodder. I rarely use my boarding shotgun model, but the KHD is an auto include for me. 

The measuring widgets are nice, but certainly not necessary. I've never used them; I'd generally prefer to buy more models than accessories, and I find that they can be cumbersome in tight quarters.. That said, a lot of people really like them, so if you like them, go for it.

[Mack]

Thanks for the input.  I ended up buying the two bandit blister pack, I like the unit and sculpts.  If i don't use both of them at the same time they will be fun to paint. As a very beginning player, Camo units are so much easier to use than full TO units.

When you mentioned the KHD, thats the killer hacking device to target enemy hackers right?  Do you have much success using that unit?  I understand the basic concepts of the game but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the strategy and tactics that develop.  Is the threat or surprise of an attack against an enemy hacker better than  attacking hackable unit for example with the assault hacker?  Or a bandit seems like one of the few units with an adhesive launcher, true an average BS but could try for a surprise attack.  When you say the KDH is an auto include for you I just want to know what your experience has been with the unit .  Thanks, I'm still trying to figure out what the rules for hacking really mean for the overall strategy for the game.

I also have a Moran unit and  Lunokhod Sputnik units that have repeaters.

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

 

 

[dataentity]

KHD Bandit is the main Bandit I used. It gives you extra utility and, even with below average WIP, it still scary to other hackers. It's a specialist and comes with the weapon you probably want on the bandit as I think a shotgun works better for a bandit than a combi rifle. It's also very affordable.

Moran are very good, but I feel as if you don't want bandits as your only hacker if you're going to be concerned about repeaters.

[Mack]

Thank you very much for the feedback.   After tonights game using a bandit I can see that the KHD Bandit could open a lot of additional options.  I think one of the hard things is trying to compare the profile against other Nomad faction options.  I could see a KHD Bandit could be a nasty surprise for a cheap point cost.  I wouldn't plan as using it as my sole hacker, I was more wondering if it was more useful with the WIP stat than mines or emaulers. 

I liked the Moran cause it allowed some form of area denial without having to make a commitment on what area I needed to be in.  As a new player deciding what troops to commit to what areas is daunting. The koalas didn't make a huge difference in tonights game but my opponent always had to think about where they were and used an order or two to deal with them.  I can see that when playing on winning with objectives, that making an opponent waste several orders dealing with a unit could swing the game. I think that some of it is just also figuring out what units are capable of and learning to play to their strengths.  It seemed that the Crazykolas were not that effective against better troops but could shut out weaker specialist from an area. Is this at least on the right track of thinking?

 

 

[dataentity]

Crazy Koalas are very good deterrents from anything. Anything is going to worry about taking a damage 15 hit. The issue you had tonight was in positioning. Your Moran was positioned in a place where the units that were going to run into the Koalas were 1) Expendable as in the opponent wouldn't really care if they die and 2) good against Koalas. Morlocs dodge Koalas fairly easily.

As for the Bandits, it's entirely up to you. I like the KHD because while it can kill things, it's also a infiltrating specialist and has more tricks that it wants to use than the forward observer.They start closer to the objectives. It saves orders to just be there next to the objective. They're also safer being in a camouflage marker state instead of just being able to be shot at. For 'normal' games, camouflage infiltrating specialists will be among the best things you can bring for completing said objectives and Corregidor doesn't really have another option.

[Mack]

Yeah thanks, I just took forward observer to help with the mission objectives tonight. In the short amount of time playing and reading about Infinity I can see that anything that allows order compression, like infiltration is really powerful.  Does anyone ever get taken out by stuff like smart missile launcher?  Most of the stuff I've read said it was the threat of usually the threat of getting targeted and having to take counter measures that was the real value of the weapon.                                 

I kind of feel like I got some of my deployment off tonight, the Intruder with the HMG would have been better suited near the smoke grenade in the center. I could see that I picked the wrong match ups for some of my unit tonight, having my infiltrating HTH specialist fighting crazed berserker HTH fighters wasn't gettin me anywhere. My heavy hitting unit that I kind of built around did some good but didn't really get a chance to shine, my Mobil Brigada could have done about the same thing.  I saw a mistake in deployment and then made my own mistake trying to take advantage of it.  With games only lasting a couple of rounds I can see it being really hard to recover from bad deployment mistakes. Deploy my one person that can fight in low visibility away from all the other people in my unit with smoke.

I can see what you mean about the KHD Bandit profile being a good option.  It seems to add a few options and is one of the cheaper profiles.  I just have to learn about what the unit can and can't do. Do the ITS missions simply need a hacker for certain mission objectives, doesn't matter what type?

 

 

[Mack]

On another side note, does anyone have an opinion on this unit?  Puppetactica Company.  These models caught my eye because they are so different and seem really "Nomad".  So all the puppets kind of form their own fire team with the puppeteer? The last couple of models I've built have been Corregidor because I liked them and seemed like a good idea all things being equal to have options for a sectorial force.  I thought the crazy kolas were funny but there is something appealing about a puppet sniper with marksmanship.  If I'm playing a Vanilla force would these see play (maybe the hacker option for example)?

[dataentity]

Puppetactica are very VERY good. They are cheap, fast wounds that are good at pushing buttons and surprisingly good at firefights. The way they work is the puppet master is placed somewhere. So long as there are active puppets on the field, the puppet master can only idle. Even if a guy is walking up to the puppet master to shoot him, the puppet master can only idle. The reason the hacker profile exists is because you must have a hacker (or TAG) to bring remotes, which includes the puppet bots. I suppose you can also use him as an actual hacker, but that's not really his strength.

Smart Missile Launchers are half a trap. While in theory they can be very deadly, it is also very order intensive. One way to think about it is this: you have to make 1 roll to target someone, then another roll to actually do the guided fire. During this time, that first roll could have been actually shooting said target with a gun instead of targetting and they could already be dead after 1 order. Guided fire has its place, but you always have to consider that it's relatively order inefficient.

ITS missions in general don't tend to care what type of specialist it is; Forward observer, paramedic, engineer, etc. Though there are exceptions. Then, if there are classifieds, then it does care. They don't care specifically what type of hacker typically except that some of the FO or Hacker ones require spotlight, which killer hackers don't have.

[Exile]

In addition, certain scenarios will favor a type of specialist with a +3 WIP to activate the objectives.  sometimes it's hacker, sometimes CoC, sometimes Doctor, etc.

[Mack]

A quick question, I found a Nomad Iguana box on ebay for half price because the face of the box is damaged.  Its from a seller I've bought stuff from before so if its damaged I can return it.  I like the model, but is it something that I would actually use?  While it looks cool and would be fun to paint I'm not sure if I want something that just sits on my shelf.  Does anyone ever use TAGs in their army lists for Nomads?  

[Raindog]

I have seen players use Szalmandra and Geckos mostly. TAGS are hard to master. They are a eggs in one basket type unit. They are meant to be used like a tank, but end up getting in too close.

[Sgt. Rock]

What Raindog said. TAGs can be a trap. They're big and powerful and scary, but they usually eat up about a third of your points, and you don't have to kill the TAG to render it ineffective, just kill it's orders - which, by don't of the TAG's cost, are likely to be mostly chaff that can easily be chewed through. Iguanas in particular are an odd beast. They're cheap and cheerful, but they're more fragile than most TAGs. However, they barf out a 2 wound heavy infantry with an HMG when they die. They also have a repeater, which is a double edged sword. Corregidor doesn't really have the hacking to take advantage of it, so he might be better on Vanilla. If you have money to spend, I'd grab it, because at some point, when you're more experienced, you'll likely want to experiment with it. Otherwise, hold off until you think you're ready.

[Exile]

While they may not always provide the return on the tabletop, TAGs sure do paint up nice.

[Mack]

Yeah that's what I figured, I have other stuff that I want that is far more practical.  I'm just always a sucker for half price models, probably why I have a shelf of various game parts unassembled and unpainted. I have a single Gecko which seems a lot more practical, points and size wise. I also play Star Wars Armada and the problem there is when and where to deploy the capital ships.

As I'm writing this I just saw the pictures of your painted TAGS, very cool.  The larger models are so impressive and they would probably convince some of my other friends to jump into the game.  I really like the Antipode models from the Ariadna set, but last thing I need is to pick up another faction for a couple of models.  The Szalamadra with the rail gun is awesome.  You do know your not helping me be practical and spend my money on a boring doctor or something.

 

[Mack]

I played this Sunday and had another great time.  The game is still daunting to find a good course of action with so many choices that all seem good. Thanks again everyone for taking the time to slow the game down and break down what is happening.  At least I felt that I had a better understanding what my units could and couldn't do and a was able to get some stuff working together better. Still made the mistake of looking at cover from the model, not mentally including the edge of the base.  Also got to see how annoying a well placed mine can be and having a unit in an isolated status really does limit their options.

I've been thinking about using another remote.  I have been looking at maybe a Salyut Zonds, the cheaper option with minesweeper, repeater, and baggage skill.  Often I have a few extra points that I spend on a cheap grunt soldier. A lot of my troops have disposable weapon options and perimeter weapons so the baggage option seems like it might be more useful at times.  I've been using a Moran with CrazyKolas the last couple of games and some of my other troops have disposable weapon options (mines, panzerfaust). Also is the casevac pretty situational or something that I might use if I had the option?  Currently I have a Lunokhod model which I was thinking about using as a Tsyklon Sputnik armed with a spitfire. 

Both the Salyut and Tsyklon come in boxes of two, which would put me at three size 4 remote models. I'm not in a rush to pick them up, but do you think that I would have an army list that would use that many of those types of remotes?  Like two 8 point baggage, minesweepers? All my other remote options are all size 3 so it wouldn't really work as well with proxying models. Like I'm saying I'm not in a rush to pick them up, I will probably play a game or two using the Lunokhod as a baggage remote and see what I think. 

Thanks

 

[Sgt. Rock]

In all honesty, you will likely never use the baggage skill to replenish disposable weapons. It's just too order intensive to get the depleted trooper into contact with the baggage to be worth it. I've been playing for probably about 5 years now and I don't think I've ever used the minesweeper skill. The baggage bots are extremely useful, though, because they're a cheap order, and the baggage skill adds 20 points to value of the model for purposes of controlling areas and determining victory points in tournaments. 

Tsyklons are really good. I still need to pick the box up, but they have some excellent weapon options, climbing plus, and a 360 visor. This means they're basically impossible to flank, and that coupled with climbing plus allows them to attack from unexpected angles.The X-Visor allows them to engage models effectively at a much wider variety of ranges. They're one of the best combat remotes in the game.

[Mack]

Thank you that is just the information that I need. Some stuff seems like it would be useful but in practice it just doesn't work out.  Anything that takes extra orders to pull off seems kind of suspect to begin with cause it seems I I'm always one or two orders short.  They seemed like a cheap order that could be useful. The Tsyklons seem like they would be an interesting REM to use. I picked up a Lunokhod because the single model was cheaper and it gave the option of Crazykolas and it seemed easy enough to proxy it for something else the same size. I was also looking at the Reaktion REM but it can't take a hit as well.

I have a question on the Minesweeper. This weekend my Lunokhod was pinned down by a well placed mine.  I made the mistake of having my model too far forward so I'm already in the activation template of the mine.  I feel like I'm getting overpowered in the center of the board and I think I have just enough orders to get the REM in a position to make use of its heavy shotgun and heavy flamethrower.  So I move forward with the hope that I can take the hit, which I end up failing the roll and being taken out, also putting my kolas on stand by to protect the captured data pack.

My question is this, since my REM has a minesweeper could I have used my first action as a discover so I can interact with the mine and my second short skill (considered a BS attack) l to use the minesweeper which converts ownership of the mine? If i succeeded would the mine still go off since the actions kind of happen at the same time? Or does the mine still go off as soon as I do the discover action and its too late to try and convert it? I took he gamble of trying to move my REM and getting my perimeter weapons in stand by.  But as I'm thinking about it I might have been better off trying to take control of the mine, if possible, since the WIP of the REM is 13 and my chances of taking the hit were 50/50. Thats if the timing window would even allow that.

Or is my only other options to avoid getting blasted is to have a unit outside the activation area of the mine do a discover skill so the mine is no longer camouflaged and then use another order to have my REM  use minesweeper as its first short skill since now I can interact with the mine? Or do i need to have one of my expendable units run around an activate the mine and take the hit for the team? 

I like how the decisions on how to use orders are not just straight forward but it makes my head hurt trying to sort out all the options.

[dataentity]

To be honest, I think the Lunokhod is a reactive piece. It's hard to get across the board to use the shotgun. It protects your deployment zone and can quickly move to cover holes as they show up. Remember with mines you can always dodge. Lunokhods (and REMs in general) don't dodge well, but it's an extra chance. Also, I  believe the Koalas can trigger mines. The other thing with mines is that you can aways throw expendable things at them to make way for a more valuable model. Throw a Jaguar at a mine. He'll have a decent chance at surviving the mine by dodging but, even if he fails, it's not a big loss when he dies. As you said, it's the team player move.

Yes, you can Discover + Shoot or Discover + Minesweeper. However, you have to do it out of the trigger area of the mine because the mine will pop before it's yours.

There really isn't a strictly correct option. It's always play style, list, situation dependent. Like having a Jaguar dodge the mine can be good, but if you're having to spend 5 orders to do that,  it might not be worth it. Or if it was, say, a Mobile Brigada instead of a Lunokhod, well, you might just be better off tanking or dodging with the Mobile Brigada since they will have 2 wounds anyway. I will say, just like Sgt. Rock, I've never taken the time to do Minesweeper. Not to say it's bad, but I can't really say how 'good' it is.

[Mack]

Thanks for the answer so after the first skill the mine would always detonate so there isn't a mine to sweep. Thats makes sense just making sure that I didn't misunderstand my options. Yeah I figured that any other option to clear the mine was a waste of orders since it would mean such a roundabout approach since my model is already in the activation zone. Why I was thinking about the center is that I was about to lose the data pack there and was still struggling to secure the one on the other side of the board.  So was just looking for a way to put pressure someplace else so there wasn't orders available to spend there.  But I probably should have just let my REM sit there since it was still doing its job.  I'm sure that I could have found a better use for the orders

I can see how the order spent to try and minesweep a mine could probably be better used someplace else. It also seems like a lot of remotes  that have that option would just get shot up trying to do it anyway. Also do you generally use medics and doctors to revive downed units?  Or does it just depend on the situation?  I have a medic option for my Alguacil for two points but since I haven't been pushing them forward I can't see many situations that I'm going to spend the orders for this person to charge forward and maybe heal someone? Maybe if they are in a fire team? On the supplies mission I took a Tomcat doctor because it really helped with the securing the data coffin. But every time I thought about actually trying to heal another unit it seemed I had something else that had to be dealt with. Like moving remotes in front of mines.

[dataentity]

Okay, so technically the mine is still there for you to minesweep. Remember, everything resolves at the end of the order. So the minesweep and the mine going off all happen simultaneously so if a mine is going off, it's going to go off and you can't stop that explosion.

As for doctors and paramedics. It's just one of those things that you have to judge. Infinity is a resource management game. Your most valuable resource is orders. You can doctor people back up but then you're spending orders to do so. Is it worth spending, 2 orders to get a person back up? 3? 4? To use a medikit is rough because of the -3 PH roll that you can't reroll. For most troops, that's a 7 or less so you will be failing more often than not which means the unit goes straight to dead. Doctoring is a straight WIP roll and, if they have a cube (most units do unless you're in Ariadna), you can use a command token to reroll. Much better odds.

But, yes. You have to consider what you are gaining out of getting them back up. Is it your big stompy model like a Kriza Boracs? Getting a Kriza up is generally more worth it than, say, getting an Alguacil back up. But, as you said, if you get that Alguacil up, and you reform your link to a 5-person link that could be worth it. Maybe you're about to be in retreat if you don't revive the person, even if it's a 10 point model, then maybe you do want to try. You just have to see if the order expenditure is worth it. Every order you're spending on getting someone up is generally an order you're not 1) Advancing the objective and 2) Stopping your opponent from doing the objective.

[Guest]

Looking online, one of the more impressive uses for Minesweeper is taking control of an enemy AI beacon.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Minesweeper

[Mack]

I can see the reasons that I was having some trouble seeing the timing issue.  I was unclear on the difference  of the direct template and impact template. I was mixing up some of the mechanics of the two. As soon as I announce my first order the direct template is placed even though it is not resolved until the end.  Since the resolutions happen simultaneously in the game I don't get a chance to complete the minesweeper.  Unlike throwing a grenade, which being an impact template can be "canceled" with a face to face BS attack.  The game doesn't go into what happens to the grenade, maybe I got shot and never threw it. This is because the impact template is not placed until after the resolution of all the orders. Even though minesweeping is considered a BS attack it will not have any effect on the placement of a direct template since that actually happens instantly. Also makes me have to reevaluate boarding shotguns. 

So if I have a unit that is expendable unit or one that can take a hit armed with type of direct template weapon (chain rifle, flame thrower, riot stopper) in the reactive phase, and I really want to get a hit on the active player is there any downside to waiting for the second short skill to make my decision to fire, dodge, what ever? Because if its anything other than dodge he gets hit by a reactive shot using a direct template right? That is the active player is still in LOS after the first order.

In the case of impact template weapons each of the targets in LOS of the attacker can announce a BS attack and make a face to face roll or a dodge roll, with a minus to dodge if they don't have line of sight. Each target that wins a face to face roll suffer no damage and inflict theirs.  The exception being smoke grenades were the attacker has to win all the face to face rolls to place a smoke marker. Thats correct right?