First go at a new Wood Elf List, 2500 points

[JMGraham]

My copy of the book isn’t in yet, but I’ve cribbed together points from stuff I found online and came up with a list I’d like to try. I think some shooting is important, but don’t want to make a gunline. Before the new book, I had good fortune with a pretty combat-oriented list with dual-treeman + 8-strong unit of treekin, and a lot of dryads. I’d like to stick with a combat list, but with the drop in strength for forest spirits, I’m not certain they’re the way to go, and I think magic is more necessary to modify the combat effectiveness of Wood Elf units than before. I’d also like to keep my entire list mobile, including the archers. I’ll miss the no move-and-shoot penalties, but it seems that the no negative modifiers arrows make up for that quite nicely. So, the point of this is to do things MSU-style, and keep moving, clearing chaff and whittling down units in order to isolate them with combined charges.

Points are approximate, but (I think) pretty accurate:

 

[320] Level 4 Shadow Mage, Acorn of Ages

[155] Level 2 Beast Mage, Moonstone of Hidden Ways

These two, along with the Sisters, form the magical core of the army, doling out buffs and debuffs as needed. The Acorn is intended to synergize with the no-penalty arrows (so they won’t interfere with my shooting), the Moonstone (to be able to get a unit repositioned or out of trouble quickly if needed), and all of the Wood Elf buffs. Likely they’ll be venom thickets. The forests will be placed in staging areas, covering my advance.

 

[130] Battle Standard Bearer, Hail of Doom Arrow

A classic, made even better with armour piercing

 

[170] 10 Glade Guard, Musician, Accuracy Arrows.

[170] 10 Glade Guard, Musician, Accuracy Arrows.

[170] 10 Glade Guard, Musician, Accuracy Arrows.

Great for clearing out chaff, and not effected by the negative penalties for shooting through my own forest. They’ll be able to stay mobile without losing effectiveness, and will be aces at removing enemy chaff, particularly skirmishers.

 

[120] 5 Glade Riders, Musician, 3 point arrows of some sort

Not really expecting much of these folks, really. Just needed to fill up the core points, and I have some painted. Might be good for some late game shenanigans. I hate that they're ambushers.

 

[156] 6 Wildriders

[156] 6 Wildriders

[135] 3 Treekin

[135] 3 Treekin

These are the combat troops. Wildriders are gorgeous, and the lower price on the treekin (almost) makes up for the loss of strength. These folks will be relying more heavily on the magic buffs/debuffs, but should be able to dish out some hurt, if they can combo-charge.

 

[135] 3 Warhawk Riders

Mage assassins, warmachine hunters, and blockers – these guys do what the Glade Riders would do if it wasn’t for mandatory ambushers.

 

[140] 5 Sisters of the Thorn, Musician

So cool.

 

[75] 5 Wardancers

I think these guys (and gals) will be a great utility unit. 3+ Ward Save and stubborn in a forest for blocking enemy, great at mage assassination, combo-charging with another unit to remove rank bonuses. They’re not what they were, but I think they could be pretty cool.

 

[140] 7 Waywatchers

[140] 7 Waywatchers

For killing armour and other random acts of murder.

 

[50] Eagle

The best utility piece in the game.

 

Total is 2497 points. The archers are more pricy than I’d like, but most units hit that sub-150 area that I like. There is some good redundancy, and a variety of tools. High toughness will be difficult to deal with, and will make me lean on the magic phase more than I’d like. Not sure how it will handle big blocks, without a murder-unit like the 8-strong treekin, and I feel uncertain venturing away from Life magic to shadow, but I think shadow suits the style of the army better.

 

What do you think?

 

[Raindog]

Your lists is much like mine...

 

My list would be:

 

L4 Shadow. ToPresv.

BSB on a Steed, Shield, Spear, Hoda

Capt on a Steed, Shield, Helm, Spear - Gen

 

10 GG, M -3 AS arrows 

10 GG, M -3 AS arrows 

5 GR, M Poison arrows

5 GR, M Poison arrows

 

10 Scouts, M. Mage Bunker

 

5 WR, SB, M, Shields

5 WR, SB, M, Shields

5 Sisters M

5 Sisters, M

-remaining points in Treekin

 

5 WW

5 WW

Eagle

[MexicanNinja]

JMGrahm- Do war dancers have a special rule like sisters of slaughter?  You normally need 2 complete ranks of 5 models to disrupt flanks in the flank or rear of your enemy.

 

Raindog- people complained about double 'lock units to me and murphy but yet you jump straight to 2 units of sisters?  They are pretty much the same thing.  They just don't have doombolt.

[JMGraham]

I think the difference with the sisters is that they aren't destructive like the Warlocks. With the warlocks, you can 6 dice their (vicious) spell and only stand to lose one model in a miscast. With the sisters, the spells are more support spells, so taking advantage of the liberal miscast rules isn't as much of an issue.

 

Yep, the Wardancer's dances include removing enemy's rank bonus, a 3+ ward save! and killing blow (I think!)

 

Raindog, no warhawk riders? They're probably one of my favorite changes with the new book. I'm tickled that I can finally field mine as riders, instead of as great eagles!

[Munkie]

I don't understand it, but all those woods make my natural dwarf sprinters leery. Can you chase me with forests anymore?

 

Also, I reserve the right to whine incessantly if you use ANY non-citadel woods :P

[JMGraham]

Nope, no Stave in my list, so no running forests anymore. I'm actually in the middle of working on some area terrain stuff for Worldsmith Industries, and am planning on making an appropriately sized base to use for a forest. Mostly so you have a GOOD reason to complain bitterly. 

[Munkie]

You cheat!

[Raindog]

@MN, 

 

Given the chance, I always double up units, so wise opponents cannot easily negate my intent.

 

Jim,

 

I have the models, I just don't seem them as effective. Your success with them could change my mind. 

[rudra34]

The only issue I've seen with wood elf lists is that every one of them auto-fails blood and glory.   This might have been an issue in the last book, but other than that scenario there are just so few reasons to take banners.

[Raindog]

The only issue I've seen with wood elf lists is that every one of them auto-fails blood and glory.   This might have been an issue in the last book, but other than that scenario there are just so few reasons to take banners.

 

 

There are a few places to take banners WR, Scouts, Rangers, Glade Riders……..

[Kremmet]

I don't like the dual treekin units as I'd prefer to have dual hawks over trees, but I think that's a difference in intent than anything else. I really like the dancers and am curious as to see whether one five man unit is useful for much more than a mage bunker as they are a little too easy to remove for my tastes. Overall, I think most competent WE lists will look like this as a first-try sort of thing (especially since the combo I wanted to try, HoDA Waystalker, is illegal for Ward reasons).

 

I'd also suggest trying out the Shadowdancer build with Eternal Guard as it could make for a game breaker to hold someone up for a turn with the 3++ dance, counter charge with Wild Riders, and then turn on the no-ranks-jig and just delete expensive blocks. Plus, they're natural scroll caddies with their 25 pts of magic items and ludicrous lvl 2 costs (and rather interesting in their use of Smoke and Mirrors to get their dances to combats where they're needed).

[rudra34]

There are a few places to take banners WR, Scouts, Rangers, Glade Riders……..

 

Oh I know that that can be taken, I just never see anyone taking them.  Because unless you know that you will need them for Blood and Glory, then why would you take them?

[JMGraham]

Oh I know that that can be taken, I just never see anyone taking them.  Because unless you know that you will need them for Blood and Glory, then why would you take them?

 

Hmmm... So, I could take units of 5 Wild Riders with standards and shields for a bit less than the cost of 6 naked Wild Riders. Might help in a Blood and Glory scenario, and it would free up 12 points to spend elsewhere (maybe a magic banner?). Generally, I like the extra bodies for resilience and combat effectiveness, but it's something I might try out. Maybe I'll try a unit of each and see who does the best?

[JMGraham]

Got a game in last week vs Wiccus's daemons. I played slow as all get out (new book analysis paralysis), so we only got 3 turns in. At that point, it was a draw (with me up about 85 or so points), but we were reaching a point where I was going to have to do something really awesome or get overwhelmed. Stinking single Beasts of Nurgle holding up a unit of Wild Riders for 5 combats... All of my anti-armour was for naught vs daemons, and I struggled against high toughness. Got to learn to pick my shooting targets better. It was fun though, and the new Wood Elves are FAST.

 

Bumping up to 2800 to play against Munkie's Strollaz Dwarfs, and am planning on taking the following:

 

[320] Spellweaver (Death) + Lvl 4 + Acorn of Ages

[290] Spellweaver (Shadow, General)+ Lvl 4 + Moonstone + Power Stone + Longbow + Dragonsbane Gem

 

[132] Glade Captain + BSB + Hail of Doom+ Shield

 

[160] 10 Glade Guard, No Penalties, Musician

[160] 10 Glade Guard, No Penalties, Musician

[160] 10 Glade Guard, No Penalties, Musician

[110] 5 Glade Riders. Poison

[110] 5 Glade Riders. Poison

 

[188] 6 Wildriders, Shields, Musician, Standard,

[188] 6 Wildriders, Shields, Musician, Standard,

[130] 5 Thorn Sisters

[135] 3 Warhawk Riders

[135] 3 Treekin

[135] 3 Treekin

[75] 5 Wardancers

 

[160] 8 Waywatchers

[160] 8 Waywatchers

[50]  Eagle

 

Getting magic off seems pretty important to make the other phases better, so I went with 2 level 4s and a power stone. Hopefully, between the powerstone and the extra potential dice from death, it'll make the magic phase more reliable. Not sure whether the Treekin should be one unit of 6 or not. Being only S4 now, I expect to use them differently than my previous block of 8, and I like the idea of keeping them cheap to be able to sacrifice them as re-directors as needed.

[MexicanNinja]

This is why I believe poison arrows are so much more valuble over the no penalty arrows.  Being only S3 means you will be needing at least 4's to wound many things and 5's-6's for the targets that matter.  Getting wounds through on those 6's to hit are just amazing.

 

Why not a level and a few level 1's or a level 4 and a level 2?  I feel like two level 4's in a list is just a waste of points.  I understand that you are getting a lot of spell options; however, when you get those phases when you are only getting 5-7 power dice, you are losing out on a lot of points/turn.

 

I am suprised you aren't taking the waywatcher character at 2.8k points.  That character is a beast.  He's a supreme caster killer.  In this case, you can pick out dwarf characters with no armour save shots.

[JMGraham]

So, I pretty much had my way with Munkie's Dwarfs. Given continued "new book syndrome analysis paralysis" we only got 4 turns in of the Blood, and Glory, and Monsters, Oh My! OFCC scenario. I was able to take out  first turn, and the second gyrocopter the second turn. The third turn my Great Eagle died, and the fourth turn I killed a block of Longbeards, an Organ Gun, a Cannon, and a Flame Cannon. Other units (on both sides) got whittled down (both of my Wildriders, my Sisters of the Thorn, and one unit of Glade Guard were pretty well neutered), but that was it in regards to dead units. The only combat that took place was when my treekin charged his organ gun. Brutal. I think if Munkie had played more aggressively he'd have locked me up, but he disagrees. Even with 3 blocks with Vanguard, he only one of his units made it across the centerline, which seemed like he wasn't pushing forward enough.

 

Munkie was pretty terrain shy. We had a bane stone in the middle of the board which we both avoided like the plague, but it meant Munkie splitting his forces where they couldn't support each other. He also avoided the Venom thickets from the acorn like crazy. And two of his units spent the afternoon making breakfast in a pair of stone cottages for some inexplicable reason. 

 

Standouts for me:

 

Sisters of the Thorn - Love them. The Curse is such a great spell, and it really complements the Wood Elves' mobility. I got it off on the Longbeards 3 turns in a row. For the first 2, the Longbeards didn't move. For the third one, the Longbeards said "screw it" and marched forward, but by then I had spent two turns shooting them, so the remnants were easy to moip up (and by "mop up" I mean using the death debuff and shooting them off the board. 

 

No Penalty Arrows - I like poison on the Glade riders, but I really, really like the no penalty arrows. being able to move, shoot at long range, through soft cover, with maybe even a unit of screening wardancers in front of them (for hard cover) and still be able to hit on 3s was awesome. I totally get how good the poison arrows can be, but with the no penalty arrows I was able to use the full range of the bow (and the elven mobility) to quickly respond to threats on opposite sides of the battlefield, without losing effectiveness. I really, really like that. Also, they could shoot through the windows and dowwn the chimneys of the cottages. Once I was able to concentrate bowfire on the Warmachines, They were about as effective as poison (12 no penalty arrows means 9 hits, means 1.5 wounds; 12 poison arrows (at range, moving, and cover) mean 2 wounds) but seemed much more flexible.

 

Wardancers - Unit of 5 for 75 points makes for a great screen for other units (providing hard cover) and the no penalty arrow Glade Guard can shoot through them. Cheap, mobile, and versatile - they can clear off chaff units well, and provide a stubborn 3+ ward save blocker in the woods. I might need to find a way to get another unit of these in my army.

 

Acorn + Moonstone - really expensive, but really nice to be able to get those extra Venom Thickets on the board. My Waywatcher/Mage bunker didn't end up jumping all the way across the board, but they did reposition a couple of times, and the forests really dictated the flow of the battle. My Mages never felt threatened, save for from their own miscasts. I don't know that 2 level 4s was necessary (particularly given how much I miscast), but I really liked the spell options I had available. I definitely used Death more than Shadow. 

 

With all that said, I really want to come up with a list that's better at combat. My army was perfect at guerrilla harassment tactics, but I know how frustrating that can be for opponents (and unsatisfying for me) in the long run. Then again, a faster opponent (even Vanguarding Dwarfs are slow), or an opponent who "flooded the zone" and presented me with too many immediate threats to deal with all at once might make for a very different game, as I saw with my game against Daemons last week.

[JMGraham]

Why not a level and a few level 1's or a level 4 and a level 2?  I feel like two level 4's in a list is just a waste of points.  I understand that you are getting a lot of spell options; however, when you get those phases when you are only getting 5-7 power dice, you are losing out on a lot of points/turn.

 

 

The combination of the powerstone and Death were meant to augment the lack of dice, but it didn't get to happen this game. Never used the Powerstone, and two of the magic phases were 2 and 3 dice, respectively. Even then, I couldn't stop rolling double 6s, even on 3 dice. Gonna try this set-up a bit more before deciding what to do in the long run.

 

I admit, the Waystalker is sexy! 

[MexicanNinja]

Don't get me wrong, the spell options from those lores are amazing. In my opinion, the way stalker is one of the best characters in wfb right now. Sniping characters is amazing, and he does it extremely well.

[Araticus]

Out of curiosity. would it be worth giving the Waystalker the bow of Loren?

[MexicanNinja]

I don't think so.

[wisetiger7]

I don't see a waystalker being that important in a wood elf list, unless you have a group of them. Being 90 points, the benefits CAN outweigh the points cost in say three waystalkers. But one waystalker alone will have a tough time earning its points.

 

With the assumption that the waystalker is going to hit on a 2+ (I usually end up hitting on 3+ for long range, moving, and sniper), and also the assumption that the target is T3, we're looking at 41.5% chance to cause a wound, 27.4% chance to wound on T4.

 

In the consideration of possible targets, most valuable targets will have a ward save. Even a 6++ will decrease the damage output by quite a bit. This can (and most likely will) influence target selection. It is easier to pick off a L2 backup caster with no ward save than an L4 general with TPres. Using a single waystalker to pick off a T4 L2 (assuming its in a unit, thus the need for sniper) and assuming the above To Hit and To Wound percentages, on average you will deal 1.6 wounds over the course of a 6 round game, not enough to kill it. That is not an efficient use of points.

 

Using Bow of Loren doubles those chances, and adding a second or third waystalker increases efficiency exponentially. With one 90pt waystalker, you miiiight be able to take down a low level wizard with no saves in a game, maybe a maximum of 150 points, and that's if you are lucky. With Bow of Loren and two more stalkers, you can threaten a T4 L4 general with a 4++, doing 3.3 wounds (after ward saves) over 6 rounds, earning 450 victory points on average for 290 points of stalkers, not to mention all the benefits of taking out a general, like taking out a main caster or fighty lord, loss of inspiring presence, etc.

 

If the choice was either a 90pt waystalker or putting those 90 points somewhere else like, let's say, 5 scouts with poison, I'd say go with the scouts.

[MexicanNinja]

I thought the bow of loren didn't allow the use of the no armour save arrows though.  Am I incorrect?

[wisetiger7]

"The Bow of Loren is an Asrai longbow with the Multiple Shots (A+1) special rule, which means it fires a number of shots equal to 1 plus the wielder's Attacks characteristic. It cannot fire enchanted arrows."

 

"Hawk-eyed Archer: Before a model with this special rule makes a shooting attack, decide whether it will make a fast shot or an aimed shot. If the former is chosen, the model's missile weapon has the Multiple Shots (2) rule for the duration of that attack. If the latter is chosen, then armor saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the attack. Models in the same unit must choost the same type of shot."

 

If a waystalker is taking an aimed shot, armor saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the attack. The attack consists of the Multiple Shots (A+1) special rule. So, a waystalker with the Bow of Loren chooses aimed shot, and the bow gives it 2 shots, no armor saves allowed. In other words, the only thing aimed shot adds to a waystalker's shots is the 'no armor saves allowed' bit. He can still use Bow of Loren, and benefit from 2 shots instead of his normal 1.

[JMGraham]

 

Wise Things About Waystalkers

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I think they can be of great use against naked enemy mages, but even then there are mitigating factors. I'd rather spend the 90+ points on a cheap throw-away unit I can use to screen and redirect. 

 

I (finally! been busy trying to get ready for the 40k OFCC) get to play another game with my Woodies next week to help one of my clubmates prepare for the Fantasy OFCC. It was a bear to come up with a list that met the OFCC comp and still had a reasonable (for 2800 points) Swedish Comp. I reckon that's a good sign - the OFCC restrictions and the Swedish Comp system pick up on similar issues, but in different ways. I ended up with:

 

[320] Lvl 4, Acorn, Heavens

[155] Lvl 2 Moonstone, Beast

[146] BSB, HoDA, Dragon Helm, Shield, GW

 

[160] 10 GG, Trueflight, Music

[160] 10 GG, Trueflight, Music

[160] 10 GG, Trueflight, Music

[261] 18 Eternal Guard. Shields, Full Command, Std of Discipline

[142] 6 Gladeriders, Music, Hagsbane

 

[168] 6 Wildriders, shields

[168] 6 Wildriders, shields

[140] 5 Sisters, Music

[270] 6 Treekin

[135] 3 Warhawk Riders

[85] 5 Wardancers, champ

 

[140] 7 Waywatchers

[140] 7 Waywatchers

[50] Eagle

 

The lack of Shadows (with the Acorn and Moonstone restriction) hurts, but I'm really liking the look of Eternal Guard with some buffs. Particularly if I can teleport the unit across the table to threaten enemy's flanks. Gods, but I love Wildriders!

[ClassicFlava]

If you are running beasts a waystalker with bow of Loren could be amazing if you cast savage beast on it.