40K 9th ed

[Ish]

It’s no coincidence that Bolt Action was written by Rick Priestley and Alessio Cavatore; Priestly of course created WH40k and Cavatore cut his teeth as one of the design team for WH40k Third Edition... which was sort of the last time GW really targeted this “sweet spot.” Both men left the company not too much later.

[Brother Glacius]

I will be really happy if they shrink the number of units down for a standard game. Nearly all of my armies have grown to unmanageable sizes and it would be great to cut them down.

[blackvigil]

I agree. I'd love to be able to make new armies, for a few hundred bucks. I like modeling and painting stuff, and always want to mess with things, but it's not doable with huge forces. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

6 hours ago, blackvigil said:

I agree. I'd love to be able to make new armies, for a few hundred bucks. I like modeling and painting stuff, and always want to mess with things, but it's not doable with huge forces. 

They are a business first. I wouldn't expect a 20% reduction in New Army Costs°

[blackvigil]

Well, I got about 2k of Eldar for 600ish, all new. I think that's pretty reasonable. If the the new total is 20% fewer models, it would take some price increases to make it pencil out in their favor. 

[Ish]

If it takes X points worth of models to build a 2,000 Point army today, but only takes (X*0.80) points worth of models to build an army next week, then there will necessarily be a reduction in the amount of models you need to buy.

If the cost of models remains the same, that means it will cost less to buy a full army’s worth.

[blackvigil]

4 wounds is solid. On the twitch stream, they mentioned that these guys get +2 attacks on the charge. All included, a regular Outrider gets 6 attacks when charging, according to the GW guy on twitch. Yeah, that's solid af. I assume they won't get wargear options, but if the sgt can take a power weapon or hammer, that would be ideal. Doubt it though.

[Brother Glacius]

Based on how high the GW pricing is getting, I don't think they are losing money at all.

[Ish]

27 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Based on how high the GW pricing is getting, I don't think they are losing money at all.

A retailer needn't lose money, even if it's customers are saving money. 

 

35 minutes ago, blackvigil said:

4 wounds is solid. On the twitch stream, they mentioned that these guys get +2 attacks on the charge. All included, a regular Outrider gets 6 attacks when charging, according to the GW guy on twitch. Yeah, that's solid af. I assume they won't get wargear options, but if the sgt can take a power weapon or hammer, that would be ideal. Doubt it though

When GW first rolled out the Primaris units, they didn't give Sergeants any upgrade options at all... and a few months later, they reversed that. I'm going to assume that Primaris Outrider Sergeants will have power swords by the time the proper multipart kit hits the shelves, even if they only have chainswords in the Indomitus box. The real "x factor" for these guys is going to be their points cost. There's already a salty thread about them on r/AdeptusCustodes where people are moaning about how much better they are than the Dawneagle Jetbikers. 
 

[Inquisitor66]

They might do better ecenomically with people buying more smaller armies, and a lower bar to entry.

[blackvigil]

11 minutes ago, Ish said:

When GW first rolled out the Primaris units, they didn't give Sergeants any upgrade options at all... and a few months later, they reversed that. I'm going to assume that Primaris Outrider Sergeants will have power swords by the time the proper multipart kit hits the shelves, even if they only have chainswords in the Indomitus box. The real "x factor" for these guys is going to be their points cost. There's already a salty thread about them on r/AdeptusCustodes where people are moaning about how much better they are than the Dawneagle Jetbikers. 

I agree, the point cost will be the key. If they are under 50, they will be a solid value. 42 would be solid imo.
I was thinking of getting some of these to fill in squads, then the multi-part kit for sgts, etc. I assume we'll get a Lt. and/or Cap on bike at some point, since they love to have Lts and Caps in varied set ups.

[StygianArcanum]

Salt is the default state of Reddit, and GW gamers are already salty going in. Even the lore threads are salty, when they aren't telling Erebus to take a long walk off a short pier. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Reddit discussions.

[Ish]

It’s very hard to estimate points in a vacuum; under the current structure of the game and the Space Marine codices, 50 ±5 Points per Outrider seems reasonable to me. However, that’s based on the current prices of everything else remaining static... and we’ve been given a lot of pretty credible reasons to believe an across the board increase in points is coming.

(I’ve just started collecting a Custodes force, which means I’ve been lurking around the Reddit threads and Bolter & Chainsword boards devoted to them trying to figure out paint schemes. These guys all seem especially salty about the Vertus Praetors getting any sort of reduction in efficiency... Which strikes me as misguided as they are one of the more ridiculously powerful units in 8th Edition! I’m not surprised of course — the salt must flow – but I am amused.)

[StygianArcanum]

The salt must flow indeed. My local group is so salty that they'd rather gripe about GW rather than even consider alternative systems like Infinity, Legion, or historicals.

But back on topic, I'm moderately intrigued by the new Necron Warrior gun. I was a little worried about getting them into range before I remembered the decreased table sizes were probably taken into account. If they perform decently, I can convert 20 unfinished old-model Warriors to have them.

[Ish]

Every time people complain about GW prices, I just look at my historicals rulebooks and have a silent cry.

[Munkie]

I wouldn't describe myself as salty, but I'm fairly apprehensive thus far. I only play Dark Eldar and thus view the game through that lense.

None of the reveals are good for my army:

-no more stacking -1 to hit modifiers means our best defense no longer exists. 

-all vehicles being able to fire heavy weapons means DE vehicles no longer have a unique advantage. 

-the board getting smaller means our speed matters less.

Never more fragile, never less effective at shooting on the move, less chance for speed to be a difference maker. The only hope we have is we don't get the rumored price hikes.

Even then, I really don't want the character of DE to become: the [big bad swear word]ty yet cheap eldar. Craftworlders are HUGE winners based on the leaks, DE seem to be forgotten (as usual).

[blackvigil]

30 minutes ago, Munkie said:

I really don't want the character of DE to become: the [big bad swear word]ty yet cheap eldar. Craftworlders are HUGE winners based on the leaks, DE seem to be forgotten (as usual).

I have an eldar army, and I don't totall agree. Sure, shooting while moving the tanks will be nice, but we had a 5pt upgrade for that already. I assume that DE and Eldar will get new advantages, or discounts. We used to get "charged" for those abilities, but now that they are universal, it shouldn't be considered in the overall value. If everyone get's a 20% point increase, i would assume that the things that got weaker would increase less. I'll be pretty pissed if they don't help somehow. I'm not worried about the smaller board, but I think that losing the stacking hit penalties is going to hurt. Alaitoc isn't playable anymore, because lots of things have native -1, and now it won't stack. Might as well just do Uthwe, even though it's strictly worse mechanically. 

[Munkie]

I sincerely hope DE get new advantages, but I don't have much confidence. Since GW reimagined the army in 2010, they seem to have put as little effort into updating them to the current edition as possible. The army has only gotten smaller since then.

Thus far, 9th edition reveals seem to be giving the DE playstyle to other armies. So unless they re-imagine DE again, which I'm sure they have no interest in doing, it may turn out to be a pretty bland army. 

If they are cheap enough, they may still be "good". But I like the army because it's unique, not because it's cost effective. Trading uniqueness for efficiency doesn't particularly interest me.

[Ish]

I feel that the Dark Eldar (all the xenos, really, but the Dark Eldar most of all) are just gonna have to once again “suck it up” for a year and a half until GW finally pushes out a codex for them.

But I wouldn’t fret too much. The board isn’t getting smaller, only the “no man’s land” between deployment zone borders is. If there are also less models on the table, that will make maneuvering even more important. Both players will need to cover the same amount of space, but with fewer bodies to do it, allowing for the Dark Eldar to actually play the “hit and run” style they were designed for.

[Munkie]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

I feel that the Dark Eldar (all the xenos, really, but the Dark Eldar most of all) are just gonna have to once again “suck it up” for a year and a half until GW finally pushes out a codex for them.

The problem is, it usually means we have to suck it up for entire editions.

DE were horrible in 4th, the first half of 5th, then horrible again in 6th and 7th. In 8th, we got the cool new Raiding Force option where if you take 3 patrols, you'd get +4 command points. Except when GW changed battalions from +3 to +5 CP, the Raiding Force was completely obsolete. So we've been in suck it up mode for most of this edition too.

The fundamental design flaws with DE have never beed addressed. We're the only army I know have that has exclusively foot slogging HQs AND transports with no extra capacity to fit them. Venoms have 5, and raiders have 10. Like most armies, our ideal squad sizes are 5 or 10 (when you unlock more weapons).  So we can either:

1) have an HQ (or several) in a venom, risking a potentially calamitous exlposion

2) have an HQ in a raider with a squad that must take fewer guns to accommodate them.

3) Have HQs on foot, and either slow down to use auras, or move at full speed and forego auras.

It would be very easy to solve this, but GW hasn't for a decade because they really don't think about DE unless they have to, and then they think as little as possible about them.

Can GW fix them after we suck it up for however long is required? Yes. Will they? Probably not.

[InfestedKerrigan]

My custodes are miffed about the bikes until given a reason not to be.

[Munkie]

To be clear, I do think the changes they've revealed will be better for the overall health of the game, and I'm not going to rush to judgement until I have the whole picture.

I'm just, as I said, apprehensive.

[Ish]

If any vehicles could be easily retcon’d into having space for an extra passenger or two, it’s the open-topped platforms of the Drew Carey Drunk Harry Drukhari.

It’s also weird that they’ve never given Dark Eldar HQ’s an option for a jetbike (or even a hover board). Unfortunately, with GW’s recent practice of “if it ain’t in the box, it ain’t in the book” it is highly unlikely we’ll ever see an Archon on a ‘bike.

I’d be totally cool with a Dark Eldar player deciding to model an Archon on a jetbike and proxying it as a Ynnari Craftworld Autarch on a bike. 

[blackvigil]

I agree Ish. The Ynnari are a great way to do some cross polination. I was going to do some DE things, but in my Craftworld's aesthetic. (Wraiths, dead, faceless, clean) If someone did an Autarch, but it was totally Dark Eldar, I'd just applaud the dope conversion. 

[ZeroStride]

I hope D. Eldar and Ynnari get some detachment love (it was said that D. Eldar would, in one of the streams, hopefully Ynnari get to either mix elves in a detachment or some other love).

It looks like Imperial Assassins will get the same kind of rules that Inquisitors get, you can add one without breaking your "same faction thingys". Then you can spend 2 CP to swap that assassin for a different one! Time to get converting...