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25 minutes ago, Ish said:

I swear to Zod, no one knows what the words “suggested” or “minimum” mean.

Yeah but it will be the new standard. Any store wanting to run ITC events will be changing their mats. They don't have to, but they will.

51 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

this coherency rule seems to be necessitated by the smaller board.

I think the 2 other hard counters they put on large blobs will be sufficient.

Large blobs were already more vulnerable to Ld issues than small squads in 8th. Now they're even more vulnerable than they were AND blasts will hurt them harder. Now they have more strict coherency rules too (and extremely punitive consequences for placement mistakes).

How many reasons do we need not to take large troops squads? I seriously cannot fathom writing a list for 9th that would contain more than 30 troops models, there's just too many reasons not to. I LOVED running blobs of wyches out of a Webway portal back in 5th, but they'll just be squads of 5, because having more makes them harder to use and easier to kill per model. 

The only chance blobs have, I believe, is if troops are the only thing that can score (with maybe some mission-specific exceptions). Otherwise, MSU will be the objectively correct choice in most cases.

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18 minutes ago, Munkie said:

Yeah but it will be the new standard. Any store wanting to run ITC events will be changing their mats. They don't have to, but they will.

I think the 2 other hard counters they put on large blobs will be sufficient.

Large blobs were already more vulnerable to Ld issues than small squads in 8th. Now they're even more vulnerable than they were AND blasts will hurt them harder. Now they have more strict coherency rules too (and extremely punitive consequences for placement mistakes).

How many reasons do we need not to take large troops squads? I seriously cannot fathom writing a list for 9th that would contain more than 30 troops models, there's just too many reasons not to. I LOVED running blobs of wyches out of a Webway portal back in 5th, but they'll just be squads of 5, because having more makes them harder to use and easier to kill per model. 

The only chance blobs have, I believe, is if troops are the only thing that can score (with maybe some mission-specific exceptions). Otherwise, MSU will be the objectively correct choice in most cases.

um...  I mean I am sort of ambivalent.  There arent many instances you have larger than 30.  Orks is the only one I can think of that can get to.40.  But MSU was kind of a thing 5th-7th.  even somewhat in 8th.  so.  i dunno if this is THAT big a deal.  Could even help certain armies.  my orks can really explode if I lose more than 13 orks.  if I lose 17, and I will,  this might be less punitive! 

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I think the game is more interesting and tactical with a smaller board, so my home set up will be using it. I hope OFCC uses the minimum sized board too. Larger boards will encourage a gunline or airforce style of play. None of that will bother me, since I don't care if I win. I just want a fun game.

Also... How about those Eradicators? Damn!

2 New 40k Indomitus Datasheet Rules: Eradicators & Cryptothralls ...

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I think they’re a little over-the-top due to the Total Obliteration special rule. I’m usually reluctant to make cross-faction comparisons, but in this case, it’s hard to avoid comparing them to Eldar Fire Dragons.

Fire Dragons are PL 6 for a squad of five. With lower S, lower T, and significantly fewer W... They’ve got 2” extra movement, but that’s totally not worth bragging about since they have half the range on their fusion guns... To top it off, the freakin’ Eradicators get to double-tap, which means that they’ll get more shots than the Eldar, even though the space elves have two more bodies in the squad.

Obviously, this all comes with a big asterisk and footnote about it being subject to change when we have a complete understanding of all the rules... But, for now? Oi vey.

 

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44 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

um...  I mean I am sort of ambivalent.  There arent many instances you have larger than 30.  Orks is the only one I can think of that can get to.40.  But MSU was kind of a thing 5th-7th.  even somewhat in 8th.  so.  i dunno if this is THAT big a deal.  Could even help certain armies.  my orks can really explode if I lose more than 13 orks.  if I lose 17, and I will,  this might be less punitive! 

It's not the risk of having squads larger than 30, it's the multiple risks to squads larger than 5.

I'll be taking at most probably 6 squads of 5 troops. Immune to blasts, immune to coherency restrictions, nearly immune to Ld concerns (CP or 2 when I absolutely need it), free sergeants, breakable eggs in separate baskets. There's just no upside to large squads.

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3 minutes ago, Munkie said:

There's just no upside to large squads.

That we know of... I’m rather expecting Tyranid ‘Gaunts, Ork Boyz, Chaos Poxwalkers, and maybe Imperial Guard Conscripts to all have incentives baked into their rules that incentivize taking them in hordes. 

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15 minutes ago, Ish said:

I think they’re a little over-the-top due to the Total Obliteration special rule. I’m usually reluctant to make cross-faction comparisons, but in this case, it’s hard to avoid comparing them to Eldar Fire Dragons.

Well... You're not wrong. Fire Dragons are trash compared to Eradicators. I was trying to explain my outlook to my wife... Any time marines get something that is far and away better than the chaos or xenos equivalent, it won't hurt to be mad about. I accept that GW loves marines more than their other children, by a lot. It's not even close. Marines have their own tab on the GW site, separate from the Imperium section. They are the chosen ones, and will *always* have better stuff. When other things rise above them in the meta, GW "fixes" it. 

I'm not being sarcastic. I just accept it. I bought elves because I like elves. They will never be as good as muhreenz. That's ok. I'll play them too.

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1 hour ago, blackvigil said:

I think the game is more interesting and tactical with a smaller board, so my home set up will be using it. I hope OFCC uses the minimum sized board too. Larger boards will encourage a gunline or airforce style of play. None of that will bother me, since I don't care if I win. I just want a fun game.

Also... How about those Eradicators? Damn!

2 New 40k Indomitus Datasheet Rules: Eradicators & Cryptothralls ...

smaller boards dont add options.  they just make melee good

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35 minutes ago, blackvigil said:

Well... You're not wrong. Fire Dragons are trash compared to Eradicators. I was trying to explain my outlook to my wife... Any time marines get something that is far and away better than the chaos or xenos equivalent, it won't hurt to be mad about. I accept that GW loves marines more than their other children, by a lot. It's not even close. Marines have their own tab on the GW site, separate from the Imperium section. They are the chosen ones, and will *always* have better stuff. When other things rise above them in the meta, GW "fixes" it. 

I'm not being sarcastic. I just accept it. I bought elves because I like elves. They will never be as good as muhreenz. That's ok. I'll play them too.

eldar have lived a very long time in the sun.  Lol.

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I dunno, the same reasons for taking large units are still the same reasons.

I'm still going to take units of 9 Repentia, why wouldn't I? I want to drop miracle dice on a charge, which is an investment into one squad only; I want to use Tear Them Down for +1 to wound and/or other strats, which is an investment into one squad only; I'm taking support characters to buff them, which means I need to protect those characters until the Repentia do their job and die horribly are redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor.

Likewise there's going to be other things like Green Tide, or the daemons strat that brings a unit back (whatever that is).

The whole unit coherency thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's just a mental-tax for the benefits of getting the most out of your CP. The blast weapon thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's the same as if your opponent rolls hot on their 3d3 hits, or d6 hits, etc (but it does reduce variance, which is strong). Hell, larger squads are now more resistant to leadership effects, because let's say you have a squad of 5, 2 get killed, you fail leadership now you have 2 remaining, the remaining 2 flee on a roll of 1 or 2. That is incredibly powerful vs elite units, but a blob of 20 Tzaangor? Eh, if they fail a morale check, about 1/6 remaining will flee, as opposed to the previous potential of: lots.

And no...the smaller table size is also not a reason, because all the missions are laid out using the center of the board as a reference point, so you could play on a 6'x12' table floor, and the deployment zones from the center of the board would still be the same distance apart...and the objectives would still be the same distance from the center of the board.

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People going nuts over Eradicators, but they have a max squad size of 3.  Deepstrike a squad of 10 rapid fire Hellblasters and do way more damage with the bonus of targeting multiple units.

So much knee-jerk reacting.

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6 minutes ago, Mulgrok said:

People going nuts over Eradicators, but they have a max squad size of 3.  Deepstrike a squad of 10 rapid fire Hellblasters and do way more damage with the bonus of targeting multiple units.

So much knee-jerk reacting.

totally small squads will have there place but you will still see larger squads

 

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9 minutes ago, Mulgrok said:

People going nuts over Eradicators, but they have a max squad size of 3.

Well... They probably don’t have a maximum unit size of three. Remember that all the Primaris units in the Dark Imperium box had different unit sizes on the materials that came in the box than they did in the proper codex.

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21 minutes ago, Ish said:

Well... They probably don’t have a maximum unit size of three. Remember that all the Primaris units in the Dark Imperium box had different unit sizes on the materials that came in the box than they did in the proper codex.

I am optimistic that they will be like suppressors and eliminators.  Good units with severely restricted unit size.

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10 hours ago, Munkie said:

You also can't deploy in a line anymore, even when not being cheesy. I understand what they were trying to do, but this seems like a weird solution to me. 5 models in a line is okay, 6 models would never stand side by side!

You just deploy in a modify wedge.  It's not going to effect my huge unit of boys.

This rule was meant for the undercosted screens of 10 models.

I can also unlock cheap Battalions with 6 units of 10 grots.

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20 minutes ago, Mulgrok said:

I am optimistic that they will be like suppressors and eliminators.  Good units with severely restricted unit size.

I'd assume they are like Aggressors. They are Gravis guys with specialized guns. It seems similar. That means a group of 6. Still pretty manageable. 

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6 minutes ago, blackvigil said:

I'd assume they are like Aggressors. They are Gravis guys with specialized guns. It seems similar. That means a group of 6. Still pretty manageable. 

Shooting 1 target they will get lots of value, but splitting fire is probably not cost effective.  I could see it.

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12 hours ago, WestRider said:

Serried ranks it is!

 

11 hours ago, Ish said:

 


image.thumb.jpeg.1b13470eb829707fc6509d01791f5eee.jpeg

Those are evenly aligned ranks. C'mon, man, I figured you of all people would know that serried* ranks are when each rank is offset by half a space. So you have two ranks, each with 2" spacing, with 1.7" between the two ranks.

Or, if you really only need to maintain the screen for one Turn, you can just do a little trio on each end, and keep the rest of it in a single line like before. Maybe sprinkle a couple of Models through as extra "fire breaks" if you want. Probably will take a bit of experimentation to figure out what the ideal balance is between ground coverage and morale coverage.

*For those who don't know, it's from the same root as "serrated".

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14 hours ago, ZeroStride said:

I dunno, the same reasons for taking large units are still the same reasons.

Fair enough. I don't mean to say the reasons for taking large squads have vanished. There are more downsides than ever for taking large squads, and no added upsides that we're aware of.

14 hours ago, ZeroStride said:

The whole unit coherency thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's just a mental-tax for the benefits of getting the most out of your CP.

Of course mentally taxing things are a reason. Do you believe that mental fatigue is non-existent or that it is impossible to make mistakes as you get mentally fatigued? Yes, this is absolutely a valid reason.

14 hours ago, ZeroStride said:

The blast weapon thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's the same as if your opponent rolls hot on their 3d3 hits, or d6 hits, etc (but it does reduce variance, which is strong)

Yes it is. "Your opponent might roll perfectly anyway, so it doesn't matter" is a terrible, terrible argument. By that logic, we should never put any effort whatsoever into writing optimal lists. If my opponent rolls perfectly, then it doesn't matter what choice I make, I'm going to lose. Avoiding built-in counters is another perfectly valid reason to run MSU.

14 hours ago, ZeroStride said:

Hell, larger squads are now more resistant to leadership effects, because let's say you have a squad of 5, 2 get killed, you fail leadership now you have 2 remaining, the remaining 2 flee on a roll of 1 or 2. That is incredibly powerful vs elite units, but a blob of 20 Tzaangor?

In this example, you're talking about a Ld 7 "elite" unit. I don't know very many of those. Ld 8 is far, far more common.

With Ld 8, the only number that matters is losing exactly 3 models. If you lose 4 and fail the test, the last guy dies anyway. If you lose 1 or 2, they can't fail. 

So if a Ld 8 unit with 5 members loses exactly 3 models, then rolls a 6 on combat shock, then a 1 or 2 on the last remaining model. So 1 in 18 chance of it mattering IF I lose exactly 3 models. 

It might come up once every few games. Large squads are in no way more resistant to morale than small squads. 

 

Just because the reasons aren't going to convince you to run MSU, does not mean the reasons don't even exist as you're claiming.

 

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Well sure, I wasn't saying they flat-out don't exist. I'm saying it's not an instant "larger squads are bad, and nobody can run them anymore" because that seems to be what is being argued.

Like, when I said, "It's a mental tax for the benefits of getting the most out of CP," I meant exactly that. It's a mental tax. Mental taxes are a thing...that's why I said it's a tax for the benefit.

Similar to the blast weapon change, I said reducing variance is strong, but it's not giving a new ability. There are now just additional tradeoffs.

There were already many reasons to run MSU. It's likely that a good amount of units will still want to be MSU, but units still have jobs to do. 

Units have to survive an entire opponent's turn to score objectives now, if the units aren't tough enough to survive by quality, then they need quantity. The same for character screening; you need 3 models. A squad of 5 taking 3 mortals from a Smite is now no longer a screen for the character. Packing multiple MSU squads around a character you need to protect now reduces the number of units you have who can reach other areas of the table.

There's tradeoffs, and there's jobs to do, and there's ways to mitigate the downside of large squads who have jobs to do (like, grab some apocalypse movement trays even), but this is not, "GW doesn't want anything but MSU." It does force tough choices both at list building time and during play. 

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A recent post from Goonhammer seems to be leaning towards large units actually being rather good. Of course, they also add that:

Now a MAJOR caveat here is that we are working with incomplete information and it’s entirely possible that there are major elements that will dramatically change our understanding and perception of the rules. But this is the Internet and rampant speculation with partial information is a core part of the online experience.

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