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I predict that the new edition will fix a lot of the imbalances of the current, the first half dozen new codices will be nicely balanced, and although the Internet hive-mind will figure out a couple q

Yeah. I just hate it when people voluntarily agree to exchange their wealth for the goods or services voluntarily being offered by others. 🙄

As I've been saying for years, every time GW introduces a new product -- be it as major as a new edition or as minor as a redesigned paint brush cup -- the reactions are eerily predictable:  33%

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1 minute ago, Mulgrok said:

I would like to try crusade, but not sure what I will have by the time 9th drops.

Crusade asks you to build a 50 PL Order of Battle, which is going to be roughly 1,000 Points for most factions, but you don’t have to play missions with the full roster. Combat Patrol missions, for example, only use 25 PL’s worth of units drawn from your Order of Battle.

So you could take the same collection of models, say a five-man Intercessor Squad, and list them on your Order of Battle twice just giving them different names and tracking their XP separately. You’ll just never be able to use both in the same game... at least, not until you buy some more toy soldiers!

Incidentally, the various Start Collecting boxes all tend to average around 20 Power Level...

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22 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Looking forward to it, but I have one main concern: Power Level. Power Level is fine and dandy if you just want to throw down a quick game with a buddy, but unless they change it completely in 9th and offer a lot more granularity (at which point why not just use the points system?) then it remains hopelessly unbalanced. With PL, there is literally no reason not to take the best upgrades and wargear on every single unit you take, because it doesn't cost you anything extra. If they're adding the granularity to change that, that's fine, but like I said, why not just use the matched play points system that they've been using for, what, 25+ years now? I don't really get it. PL is fine for super friendly casual stuff, but all it takes is one try-hard in the league to ruin it for everyone.

You could also simply talk to your opponent and not be a dick and take all of the expensive/best upgrades.

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3 minutes ago, Ish said:

Crusade asks you to build a 50 PL Order of Battle, which is going to be roughly 1,000 Points for most factions, but you don’t have to play missions with the full roster. Combat Patrol missions, for example, only use 25 PL’s worth of units drawn from your Order of Battle.

So you could take the same collection of models, say a five-man Intercessor Squad, and list them on your Order of Battle twice just giving them different names and tracking their XP separately. You’ll just never be able to use both in the same game... at least, not until you buy some more toy soldiers!

Incidentally, the various Start Collecting boxes all tend to average around 20 Power Level...

Also remember that with all the points being increased across the board, we can probably safely expect PL to go up, too.

2 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

You could also simply talk to your opponent and not be a dick and take all of the expensive/best upgrades.

Aaaaaand... if you'd read the other posts I was making, instead of reading one and jumping to calling me a dick, you'd see that I was worried about *other* people not following such gentlemen's rules. I was pointing out how easy it is to abuse PL, and I was specifically *not* relishing the idea of such abuse being out and about. Go back and read the rest of my posts to get context to my opinions before you jump to insults, please.

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Just now, Sgt. Rock said:

Also remember that with all the points being increased across the board, we can probably safely expect PL to go up, too.

Well, they’re rumored to be going up... We don’t know for certain yet.

In any case, I think a combination of Combat Patrol (25 PL or 500 Points) games being fully supported with bespoke missions and objectives, combined with Crusade format encouraging something like a “Escalation League meets Narrative Campaign” playstyle, and the existence of Start Collecting boxes, this might be the best time for some to jump into WH40k.

Plus, you don’t have to fret much about learning the rules since they’ll be new for all of us.

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5 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I didn't call you a dick, I was using the universal 'you' as in the player described who automatically takes the best stuff. Plus, you said there was "literally no reason" and I gave you one..not being a dick. It was a reason, not an insult.

 

If that's the case, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'm still working on my morning coffee, so I'm not all there. Still, there are entirely too many people out there for whom "not being a dick" is irrelevant. I suppose that's where the talk comes in, but as someone who gets anxiety about any kind of confrontation, even something like this, it's very, very hard to have that talk in person. It's part of why 40k has become harder for me over the last few years.

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I just had an idea for a new line of Ordo Fanaticus T-shirts... Perfect for gamers to help them out:

"Don't be a dick, I'm here for fun."

"I like pushing models and rolling dice, not arguing rules."

"If you are worried about winning, may I suggest another opponent?"

"My strategy for winning.......pew pew."

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A nerd with social anxiety? How novel. 😉

This is why I’ve repeatedly been saying that if Ordo decides to incorporate Crusade format gameplay into our regular game night pick-up game play, we should all agree to it beforehand. Maybe take a poll or something.

It would also be very simple to “house rule” the whole system to use Matched Play Points instead of Power Level. Replace all references to PL in the rules with Points at a 1:20 ratio, boom. 

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That's my concern with PL play... the unwritten rule to not be "That Guy". I have a unit of Crisis Suits equipped with CIBs (by FAR the best weapon choice). If I bring them to a PL game, I have to worry if I'm "That Guy". Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Depends on my opponent. If I play a points-based game, I don't have to worry about it... I paid my points, I play my unit. Sure, it's still possible to be "That Guy" but I have to work a lot harder at it by bringing 3 maxed out Crisis Bombs rather than just optimal weapon choices on a unit.

Of course, if I'm just "That Guy" by personality it really doesn't matter does it? 😄

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So, just as a slightly different take on this:

A Battle Sister Squad of 5 is 4 PL. A Retributor Squad is 6 PL. (For reference an Immolator tank is 5 PL, 110pts).

Without any gun upgrades, the Retributor Squad is the exact same thing as the Battle Sister Squad; same exact stat line. If you put multi-melta on them, it's 138 pts, which is totally in line for that 6 PL. The only purpose of taking a Retributor Squad is to put multi-melta on them, because while you can put heavy bolters or heavy flamers, you really don't need a lot of help taking down hoards.

So if I take a Retributor Squad and put melta on them, then I have to explain myself and the point cost differences to each opponent in order to not be a dick?

Another example, an Exorcist is 8 PL, 170pts with the 70pt gun. The 40pt alternative is next to useless. The purpose of the Exorcist is the 70pt gun. Much like the Retributors, that gun is incorporated into the PL cost. But that's "the best gun" so I'm being a dick for taking it?

The problem isn't always PL; but the problem frequently is Marines.

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5 minutes ago, ZeroStride said:

The problem isn't always PL; but the problem frequently is Marines.

Yeah, that's definitely one of the problems. I hate it, because it makes me feel guilty for playing Marines. I've had games where my chapter rules have so completely overpowered my opponent, not because I'm being That Guy, but just because of the rules, that I feel like a dick. Even just tactical marines are overpowered when every bolter in the squad has exploding 6's. It's part of the reason I want to start a second army that isn't Marines.

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I played almost all PL in 8th edition. We basically just played wysiwyg. If it was on the model, then you were good to go. That way there is no confusion. Beyond that, if you are trying to test something out, then we'd just ask our opponent ahead of time. Much harder to do for random pickup games I suppose, but worth a try.

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3 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Yeah, that's definitely one of the problems. I hate it, because it makes me feel guilty for playing Marines. I've had games where my chapter rules have so completely overpowered my opponent, not because I'm being That Guy, but just because of the rules, that I feel like a dick. Even just tactical marines are overpowered when every bolter in the squad has exploding 6's. It's part of the reason I want to start a second army that isn't Marines.

ya, new players hate Master Artisans because it looks like cheating.

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2 minutes ago, Mulgrok said:

I would probably look like a douche because I made my Marines fluffy by putting combi-flamer and meltagun in every tactical squad.

It was plasma and missile launchers for me (though I seldom fielded a squad bigger than 5... Crimson Fists, and all.) But I'd usually give the sarge a combi weapon or a storm bolter or something, too.

3 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I played almost all PL in 8th edition. We basically just played wysiwyg. If it was on the model, then you were good to go. That way there is no confusion. Beyond that, if you are trying to test something out, then we'd just ask our opponent ahead of time. Much harder to do for random pickup games I suppose, but worth a try.

I think I played one game of PL with a friend before I actually got back into the game, just as a demo for how the new edition works. I haven't gone back to it since, so maybe I didn't give it a fair shake.

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21 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Even just tactical marines are overpowered when every bolter in the squad has exploding 6's. It's part of the reason I want to start a second army that isn't Marines.

Bolter Discipline is a horrible, terrible, no-good, very bad rule... and I say this as someone with an Imperial Fists army.

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I agree. Classic bolters did need a boost to make them better, but having exploding 6's on every single weapon with the word "bolt" in the name is a bit much. And the other chapter tactic for Crimson Fists is kinda weak, but they really could have come up with something better for a boost. Then again, I also get that boost for shooting vehicles with heavy weapons in Devastator doctrine, so I can't complain too much.

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13 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I bought my wife the Sisters army...she is actually putting it together with the intent with learning how to play.

I love this army. Love the models, love the rules, love the style. Hopefully she'll dig it.

The amount of "extra cool bits" is crazy. You can really make some nice variation just with some simple part swaps, and all the power-armor kits work well together.

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Speaking of Marines being a problem....

Planning Permission Authorised…

While we’re discussing Fortifications, we couldn’t resist showing you a few highlights from the datasheets of the upcoming units for the Space Marines and Necrons! First up the Hammerfall Bunker… 

Vf4kU72tZc3DfN16.jpg

We showed you the profiles for its suped-up (in fact, ‘superfrag’ or ‘superkrak’ no less) missile launcher already, but you’ll surely have noticed all the guns sprouting from it in every direction. These rapid-deployment bastions are the ultimate area-denial assets, as their automated guns blaze away at EVERY ENEMY UNIT WITHIN RANGE. Approach this murder-bunker of doom at your peril!

9uLNe39tQ1kTsN2a.jpg

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