40K 9th ed

[Ish]

23 minutes ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

Oh yeah. I was seriously miffed when they revealed that they already had three codex supplements for the Marines ready to drop. I mean, I know that it's going to be mostly just another Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V of the same fluff they've written in the last eight codices... But, sheesh. They could have at least spaced it out a little! 

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

[Mulgrok]

Did one of the pictures show Eradicators with grav cannons?  They can immediately discard old marines once primaris melta and grav squads are released. That will complete all the old weapon options.

[Mulgrok]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

Oh yeah. I was seriously miffed when they revealed that they already had three codex supplements for the Marines ready to drop. I mean, I know that it's going to be mostly just another Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V of the same fluff they've written in the last eight codices... But, sheesh. They could have at least spaced it out a little! 

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

The marine lost his body and opted to fly around instead of waddle as a dreadnought.  He is cosplaying as R2-D2.

[Lyraeus]

16 hours ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

We all know the new primaris speeder will be significantly undercosted so GW can sell a bazillion kits, and they confirmed the all-marine-eq releases for the next five months, but this level is seriously going to ruin a lot of people’s fun at the table.

Even the new necron datasheets actually reveal some stealth nerfs that will specifically hurt them against these extra-shooty marine upgrades. And keep in mind necrons never got any PA buffs either.

In particular the new chronometron can’t apply the reroll charge buff to reinforcements/deep strike, and the invul save is now a single unit instead of previously a full aura effect. MWBD already suffered from this compared to the best marine buffs being auras.

In addition, five of the six new necron units are HQs which they already have way too many for the slots since Indomitus. So even if they each have useful buffs, they apply to only one unit each and will be impossible to take enough buffing characters to keep the army on par.

Meanwhile marines, who already have the best buffing strats and characters - many in the elite slots - are gaining even more condensed heavy firepower and better toughness/wound troops than DG/AC.

When these units drop people are going to have to start prefacing their LFG posts with “marines” or “anything but” because nothing else is going to survive turn two. Marines were already the best at playing the missions for points as well.

That can’t even be fun for marines players at this point.

 

 

 

This space marine fanboy hit my worries dead on the nose. 

Based on the PL for these units at max upgrade they should be about 280-290 points for 10 T5 W3 models. So 30 T5 wounds for 280 points vs current primaris which is 200 points for 20 T4 wounds or the future tactical marines which are 180 for 10 no upgrade Firstborn

[Lyraeus]

15 hours ago, Ish said:

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

Cat Table Meme is the new primaris standard 😛

 

[Brother Glacius]

was watching a video comparing bolt action 2nd ed vs 9th 40K. one of the things that kept popping up that I hadn't considered before was the sheer amount of rerolls that 40K allows for. The reviewer brought up the point in that it takes away some of the drama from the game. hadn't really thought of it like that before, but I could see his point. most of the time that I played 8th, I didn't use command points at all and I'll admit, I liked that. Just helped to remove that one extra layer of more stuff that 40K deals with.

[Ish]

The heavy use of re-rolls, I suspect, is an attempt by the game designers to kind of “patch over” the game’s use of six-sided dice.

A straight roll of a D6 can only yield six results, obviously. That doesn’t give a very good range of outcomes if you want to make distinctions between lots of different units... A 3+ happens 66.667% of the time, a 4+ happens 50% of the time. Re-rolling all failures or re-rolling natural ones adds some “levels” in between those two options.

It’s still a pain in the butt to actually do in play though.

[andy]

I think increasing the damage capacity of units and the damage dealt by weapons is another attempt at widening the design space. Can't imagine they'll ever move away from d6 based system, and they need to find breathing room somehow.

[Ish]

I would like to see them move away from the three-stage rolls of "to Hit, to Wound, to Save."

In the early days, it was a good way to differentiate between units that were of average durability but clad in heavy armor (Brettonian Knights and Storm Troopers), units of heavy natural toughness but lousy armor (Orcs and Orks), or super-human units with exceptional armor (Chaos Warriors, Space Marines). But there were either far less models on the field (WH40k) or you were rolling for whole blocks of identical models (WHFB). 

I'd like to see the game move to just using an "to Hit, to Save" system. 

[Munkie]

3 hours ago, andy said:

I think increasing the damage capacity of units and the damage dealt by weapons is another attempt at widening the design space. Can't imagine they'll ever move away from d6 based system, and they need to find breathing room somehow.

I agree that it's part of why they're going this direction, the problem is it makes fragile things even extra more fragile. As a drukhari player, the extra damage makes our paltry defenses ever more useless. A 5++ on our vehicles is handy against high quality, low quantity attacks like lascannons and meltaguns. But if people are pouring damage 3 weapons into them, they're dead unless I roll hot.

Having FNP 6+ across all my infantry is functionally useless against damage 2 weapons. 1/36 chance for it to matter.

This edition is designed specifically to make glass-cannon armies bad since it's about board presence and not killing power. Drukhari are designed to be a glass cannon. Except the glass is getting more fragile, and the cannon compares less and less favorably to the cannons of much, much more durable armies.

When the new heavy incursor troops squads can shoot harder than your shootiest heavy support option, you know you're [big bad swear word]ed. And considering GW fundamentally does not understand how the army functions and has written each DE codex since 5th during a single lunch break, I have little hope that they'll haul us out of the basement whenever we get our codex. We'll still have 1 wound, pointless FNP, and wildly overpriced 1 damage poison attacks.

I'm looking forward to 10th edition though! 

[andy]

I hear you. My current main army is Orks. My play group is super casual, play-for-fun. Even with that, I don't see a game where Space Marines don't just shoot my Speed Freeks completely off the board. My other main army? T'au, whose 8th Ed playstyle I'm completely not interested in. Hopefully the Xenos codexes deliver. If they don't, I guess 9e will just be my Imperial Fists.... effectively 30k played with 40k rules.

[Inquisitor66]

Sounds like you'd enjoy Age of Sigmar where they did just that.

 

I think I would be ok with the change, no more str or toughness...if something is highly resistant it gets more wounds. No more FNP either.

[Munkie]

4 hours ago, andy said:

I hear you. My current main army is Orks. My play group is super casual, play-for-fun. Even with that, I don't see a game where Space Marines don't just shoot my Speed Freeks completely off the board. My other main army? T'au, whose 8th Ed playstyle I'm completely not interested in. Hopefully the Xenos codexes deliver. If they don't, I guess 9e will just be my Imperial Fists.... effectively 30k played with 40k rules.

Yeah, some friends and I are starting a friendly Crusade campaign which I think will be a lot of fun. Although Drukhari also don't function at small points levels since each of their subfactions have gaping holes that are designed to be plugged with multiple detachments. So I'm using my unpainted harlequins. 

We've got 2 ork, and a tau player, too. Shockingly, our white scars player took a loss in week 1 to orks. That 3 CP strategem to replenish a unit of 30 boyz is so good at 25PL!

I just have no interest in "competitive" 9th.

 

[Torg]

I have been playing with my Eldar... trying various forces and the glass cannon is really fragile lol... is an understatement.  I find the primaris and new ed Marines pretty hard to deal with.  They hit really hard - and are really tough.  I have been trying various Eldar army lists - and really the only equal I can come up with is my Wraithwall list - just for pure staying power and killing power.  It gets boring - so I only have played that list a few times before changing things up.

I am working on my AdMech for a change of pace.  But I am really hoping for a good Xeno codex update in the new year.  

d

[Sgt. Rock]

This is kinda going to suck for armies that get their 9th ed codices first (though Marines don't get to complain about anything these days) but once it's fully rolled out, I think it's going to be very good for the health of the game. And let's be honest, Marines are the ones this nerf bat is being directed at the most. I like it.

[Munkie]

This is definitely a great change for the direction of the game.

If Crisis Suits are made to be core, but not riptides (or equivalent), then we might see a Tau army have a movement phase for the first time in 3 years! 

 

[Ish]

A much needed and very sensible change.

Probably safe to assume that all Troops units will become Core, plus most Infantry Elites and Heavy Support units that aren’t also characters (so Terminators, yes; Apothecary, no).

(Fun Side-Note: There are already a dozen threads on the various WH40k Reddit boards and other forums where salty players are bemoaning that their triple Leviathan Dreadnought and double Smash-Captain list is now “useless” and that WH40k is ruined forever. So, huzzah!)

[Mulgrok]

Just pair the smash captain with a smash chaplain for reroll all hits in combat.  People haven't used Litany of Hate for so long they forgot it exists?

EDIT: I am assuming active abilities that effect an area are not the same as "auras".

[Sgt. Rock]

1 minute ago, Mulgrok said:

Just pair the smash captain with a smash chaplain for reroll all hits in combat.  People haven't used Litany of Hate for so long they forgot it exists?

EDIT: I am assuming active abilities that effect an area are not the same as "auras".

It depends on how it's worded in the codex, we won't know until that drops. The Chaplain may only affect core units, as well. It looks like they're trying to tone back how easy it is to buff characters into being mega-monsters that kick the tar out of everything in their path.

[Ish]

I can see a case being made, either way, for active abilities working on just “Core” units.

Narratively: on the one hand, a Chaplain is supposed to be a figure of inspiration to all members of his Chapter; On the other hand, Chapter Masters and Captains are already masters of combat with decades (maybe centuries) of experience who might appreciate the stirring words of the Chaplain are already at the peak of prowess... and a Thunderfire Cannon or a Whirlwind Missile Launcher ain’t gonna ain’t any better because it was “inspired.”

Mechanically: one the one hand, the player has to position the buffing unit, use the buffing ability, and there might be a mechanical chance of failure (a die roll of some kind); On the other hand, does a 2+ to hit really need to be a 2+ to hit with a re-roll?

 

[ZeroStride]

This addresses the power of re-rolls, but not the other issues with re-rolls (like it just takes longer to play the game), and it does so at the expense of making the game more complicated. It's a badly implemented, but well-intentioned, change.

[Ish]

So, someone on Reddit is saying they went through screenshots from the codex preview video looking for what abilities were keyed to the Core keyword. He's saying this is what he found: 

Quote

Psychic Powers:

• Veil of Time: Unaffected

• Might of Heroes: Core or Character

• Null Zone: Not applicable

• Psychic Scourge: Not applicable

• Fury of the Ancients: Not Applicable

• Psychic Fortress: Cut off but seems unaffected

Note- The Obscuration Discipline seems to be unchanged on this front, but I can only see 2 powers.

Litanies

• Litany of Hate: Core or Character

• Litany of Faith: Core or Character

• Catechism of Fire: Core or Character

• Exhortation of Rage: Core or Character (Note, this is gonna be +1 to wound in melee on 1 unit)

• Mantra of Strength: Not Applicable

• Recitation of Focus: Core or Character

• Canticle of Hate: Core or Character

Warlord Traits

• Storm of Fire: Core only

As always, caveat emptor.

[Lyraeus]

7 hours ago, Ish said:

A much needed and very sensible change.

Probably safe to assume that all Troops units will become Core, plus most Infantry Elites and Heavy Support units that aren’t also characters (so Terminators, yes; Apothecary, no).

(Fun Side-Note: There are already a dozen threads on the various WH40k Reddit boards and other forums where salty players are bemoaning that their triple Leviathan Dreadnought and double Smash-Captain list is now “useless” and that WH40k is ruined forever. So, huzzah!)

YAY! 

I got into it with a Marine player in my TTS Crusade group... He was mad that he couldnt play Herohammer the same and I told him I was happy he had to play the game much like the rest of us non marine players. 

[Ish]

I don’t mind the idea of a Space Marine chapter relying heavily on their heroes. The crusading knightly order aesthetic is kind of the idiom for Dark Angels, Black Templars, Blood Angels, et cetera. So having a bigger than life “paladin” or “warrior-king” leading the charge is a fitting part of the game’s tone...

So I don’t want to see them completely remove “HeroHammer,” but I do want to see them dial it back.

[Lyraeus]

33 minutes ago, Ish said:

I don’t mind the idea of a Space Marine chapter relying heavily on their heroes. The crusading knightly order aesthetic is kind of the idiom for Dark Angels, Black Templars, Blood Angels, et cetera. So having a bigger than life “paladin” or “warrior-king” leading the charge is a fitting part of the game’s tone...

So I don’t want to see them completely remove “HeroHammer,” but I do want to see them dial it back.

If they were like Harlequins where the Hero's were essential then sure, but in reality, does Space Marines REALLY need "Re roll all hits"? to be good? I dont think they do