40K 9th ed

[Inquisitor66 563]

I don't feel that space marines are 1 faction anymore. They have done a respectable job of differentiating the chapters. It's more like 8 armies that share similar profiles.

9 if you count Grey Knights.

[Mulgrok 162]

I hope they get rid of tactical doctrines and just give a 3rd chapter trait.  The doctrines are fluffy, but they just add more mental overhead I have to keep track of.  I would rather have a fluffy static bonus that is applied all game.

[Ish 5,326]

I’ve always felt like the Tactical Doctrines were kind of mildly insulting... Like the book was telling me how to play my army. 

[Mulgrok 162]

4 hours ago, Ish said:

I’ve always felt like the Tactical Doctrines were kind of mildly insulting... Like the book was telling me how to play my army. 

at the moment, it dictates that my Salamander army is dumb to do anything other than putting some Aggressor and Eradicator units in reserve to overkill stuff on turns 2 and 3.

[blackvigil 245]

I think they should make the Doctrines into 1CP strats. You want to be in Assault this turn? Spend a CP and you are. Done deal. 

[Ish 5,326]

I think they should just drop them entirely. You want to assault this turn? Roll the charge dice and do it. You want to shoot this turn? Roll the to hit dice and do it.

Don’t need it to be dictated to you when and how you make your army do things.

[Inquisitor66 563]

I actually really like doctrines. It makes me feel like my force has turned war into a science with certain phases baked in.

You can still do stuff out of phase, the benefit is just 1 ap.  The chapter doctrine bonus might be a bit much, I can never remember it.

[Lyraeus 1,011]

22 hours ago, Inquisitor66 said:

I actually really like doctrines. It makes me feel like my force has turned war into a science with certain phases baked in.

You can still do stuff out of phase, the benefit is just 1 ap.  The chapter doctrine bonus might be a bit much, I can never remember it.

Doctrines on there own are not a huge issue though. Its everything else that comes with it. All the over the top strats that are similar or better to what other factions have, relics that equal or beat every other faction, the list goes on. 

 

It is just so frustrating. 

[Munkie 1,914]

Bolter drill was the first, army-wide attempt to make space marines feel trained in a way nobody else was, and it was pretty good.

Then they came out with the doctrine system and it was so broken that they had to to re-write it and remove an entire stratagem just to try to keep it from continuing to ruin the game, as it had clearly done.

Between auras, more auras, ridiculous stratagems, combat doctrines, chapter tactics, shock assault (IMO, the dumbest space marine rule), and bolter drill, the combo-stacking is fankly game deciding.

You don't have to be good to win. Just play space marines.

[VonVilkee 2,774]

19 minutes ago, Munkie said:

Bolter drill was the first, army-wide attempt to make space marines feel trained in a way nobody else was, and it was pretty good.

Then they came out with the doctrine system and it was so broken that they had to to re-write it and remove an entire stratagem just to try to keep it from continuing to ruin the game, as it had clearly done.

Between auras, more auras, ridiculous stratagems, combat doctrines, chapter tactics, shock assault (IMO, the dumbest space marine rule), and bolter drill, the combo-stacking is fankly game deciding.

You don't have to be good to win. Just play space marines.

But true... Shock assault is counter intuitive too as it pretty much always applies instead of when they charge.

[Munkie 1,914]

1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

But true... Shock assault is counter intuitive too as it pretty much always applies instead of when they charge.

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

[InfestedKerrigan 5,214]

1 hour ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

It's cuz the marine crew jumps out, duh.

[Mulgrok 162]

Guess I will convert all of my assault intercessor sergeants to hammers.  I only painted 1 unit of them because I expected this to happen.

[Ish 5,326]

3 hours ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

God, I hate the current codex...

[Mulgrok 162]

5 hours ago, Munkie said:

I charged a razorback the other day with some mandrakes. Shock assault! Because space marine tanks are highly trained in hand-to-hand combat or something...who cares, have free bonuses!!

first time I charged with a rhino it did 3 damage. Killed 1 intercessor and wounded another.  Rhino OP.

[Tao Tsê-Mung 56]

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

We all know the new primaris speeder will be significantly undercosted so GW can sell a bazillion kits, and they confirmed the all-marine-eq releases for the next five months, but this level is seriously going to ruin a lot of people’s fun at the table.

Even the new necron datasheets actually reveal some stealth nerfs that will specifically hurt them against these extra-shooty marine upgrades. And keep in mind necrons never got any PA buffs either.

In particular the new chronometron can’t apply the reroll charge buff to reinforcements/deep strike, and the invul save is now a single unit instead of previously a full aura effect. MWBD already suffered from this compared to the best marine buffs being auras.

In addition, five of the six new necron units are HQs which they already have way too many for the slots since Indomitus. So even if they each have useful buffs, they apply to only one unit each and will be impossible to take enough buffing characters to keep the army on par.

Meanwhile marines, who already have the best buffing strats and characters - many in the elite slots - are gaining even more condensed heavy firepower and better toughness/wound troops than DG/AC.

When these units drop people are going to have to start prefacing their LFG posts with “marines” or “anything but” because nothing else is going to survive turn two. Marines were already the best at playing the missions for points as well.

That can’t even be fun for marines players at this point.

 

[Ish 5,326]

23 minutes ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

Oh yeah. I was seriously miffed when they revealed that they already had three codex supplements for the Marines ready to drop. I mean, I know that it's going to be mostly just another Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V of the same fluff they've written in the last eight codices... But, sheesh. They could have at least spaced it out a little! 

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

[Mulgrok 162]

Did one of the pictures show Eradicators with grav cannons?  They can immediately discard old marines once primaris melta and grav squads are released. That will complete all the old weapon options.

[Mulgrok 162]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

Oh yeah. I was seriously miffed when they revealed that they already had three codex supplements for the Marines ready to drop. I mean, I know that it's going to be mostly just another Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V of the same fluff they've written in the last eight codices... But, sheesh. They could have at least spaced it out a little! 

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

The marine lost his body and opted to fly around instead of waddle as a dreadnought.  He is cosplaying as R2-D2.

[Lyraeus 1,011]

16 hours ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

Anyone else significantly disappointed with the marinesturbation of the reveals today?

We all know the new primaris speeder will be significantly undercosted so GW can sell a bazillion kits, and they confirmed the all-marine-eq releases for the next five months, but this level is seriously going to ruin a lot of people’s fun at the table.

Even the new necron datasheets actually reveal some stealth nerfs that will specifically hurt them against these extra-shooty marine upgrades. And keep in mind necrons never got any PA buffs either.

In particular the new chronometron can’t apply the reroll charge buff to reinforcements/deep strike, and the invul save is now a single unit instead of previously a full aura effect. MWBD already suffered from this compared to the best marine buffs being auras.

In addition, five of the six new necron units are HQs which they already have way too many for the slots since Indomitus. So even if they each have useful buffs, they apply to only one unit each and will be impossible to take enough buffing characters to keep the army on par.

Meanwhile marines, who already have the best buffing strats and characters - many in the elite slots - are gaining even more condensed heavy firepower and better toughness/wound troops than DG/AC.

When these units drop people are going to have to start prefacing their LFG posts with “marines” or “anything but” because nothing else is going to survive turn two. Marines were already the best at playing the missions for points as well.

That can’t even be fun for marines players at this point.

 

 

 

This space marine fanboy hit my worries dead on the nose. 

Based on the PL for these units at max upgrade they should be about 280-290 points for 10 T5 W3 models. So 30 T5 wounds for 280 points vs current primaris which is 200 points for 20 T4 wounds or the future tactical marines which are 180 for 10 no upgrade Firstborn

[Lyraeus 1,011]

15 hours ago, Ish said:

Also, the dorsal turret of the new Land Speeder appears to have a Space Marine gunner. Unless that dude has no body below his clavicles, then he's sitting in the middle of the nuclear reactor that powers the thing. How the f--- does that work!?

Cat Table Meme is the new primaris standard 😛

 

[Brother Glacius 1,785]

was watching a video comparing bolt action 2nd ed vs 9th 40K. one of the things that kept popping up that I hadn't considered before was the sheer amount of rerolls that 40K allows for. The reviewer brought up the point in that it takes away some of the drama from the game. hadn't really thought of it like that before, but I could see his point. most of the time that I played 8th, I didn't use command points at all and I'll admit, I liked that. Just helped to remove that one extra layer of more stuff that 40K deals with.

[Ish 5,326]

The heavy use of re-rolls, I suspect, is an attempt by the game designers to kind of “patch over” the game’s use of six-sided dice.

A straight roll of a D6 can only yield six results, obviously. That doesn’t give a very good range of outcomes if you want to make distinctions between lots of different units... A 3+ happens 66.667% of the time, a 4+ happens 50% of the time. Re-rolling all failures or re-rolling natural ones adds some “levels” in between those two options.

It’s still a pain in the butt to actually do in play though.

[andy 973]

I think increasing the damage capacity of units and the damage dealt by weapons is another attempt at widening the design space. Can't imagine they'll ever move away from d6 based system, and they need to find breathing room somehow.

[Ish 5,326]

I would like to see them move away from the three-stage rolls of "to Hit, to Wound, to Save."

In the early days, it was a good way to differentiate between units that were of average durability but clad in heavy armor (Brettonian Knights and Storm Troopers), units of heavy natural toughness but lousy armor (Orcs and Orks), or super-human units with exceptional armor (Chaos Warriors, Space Marines). But there were either far less models on the field (WH40k) or you were rolling for whole blocks of identical models (WHFB). 

I'd like to see the game move to just using an "to Hit, to Save" system.