GW's Tactical Deployment showcase

[Lyraeus]

I saw this article today and thought... WOW this needed its own thread for dedicated discussions 

 

Overall I love this. It will allow people to add another layer of depth to their gameplay and not rely on a favorable board to get things done. Don't want something in the middle hindering you? Well, now you have that option and you should hope your opponent doesn't mess that up.

There might be concerns over custom terrain but even with that issue, a person can just take the base dimensions of one of these buildings and make their own. The Fane in this could easily have an Ork version for instance as long as the base floor layout is made properly sized. 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

3

Prepare to Deploy (Tactically!)

 

 

The Chapter Approved Tactical Deployment Mission Pack is available to pre-order from Saturday, and it brings a totally new way to play competitive Warhammer 40,000. Today, we’re taking a look at Tactical Deployment games and how terrain will be playing a massive part in your battles.

Tactical Deployment games see you bring your collection of terrain to battle along with your army. Selecting terrain pieces and choosing how to deploy them in your territory will play an essential role in your success in battles. Each terrain feature you take offers your units tactics and abilities to exploit on the battlefield while providing additional objectives for both you and your opponent to achieve. Can you rise to this new tactical challenge?

The Bigger, the Better

Each piece of terrain has a cost in terrain points. For a Combat Patrol-sized game, each player brings between 50-100 points of terrain, while at the other end of the spectrum, you’ll want 300-400 points each for an Onslaught battle. This means that you’ll always have the right amount of terrain for the board size you’re playing on – for example, the Storage Fane is 40 terrain points.

 

As you can see, each terrain piece also has terrain abilities – if you love the idea of half of your unit throwing their grenades in a turn, the Storage Fane is definitely for you. The datasheets for Area Terrain also define the actual footprint of the piece, making the terrain’s properties nice and clear for all players.

Take a Second

The new Chapter Approved Mission Pack also includes a range of new secondary objectives for you to choose from for your matched play games. With your opponent bringing more terrain pieces, you’ll likely be seeing more buildings on your battlefields. Why not take advantage of the fact by earning points for destroying some?

Some of the terrain datasheets contain the Critical Feature keyword, representing important structures or areas of the battlefield. Choose the Outright Domination secondary objective to earn points for controlling these terrain pieces.

Mission Briefing

As you might expect from something with the words “Mission Pack” on the front cover, the new book includes a plethora of additional matched play missions. There are six missions for each size of game, meaning that no matter which type you prefer, you’ll find some exciting new games to try. For example, Forward Outpost is an Incursion-sized mission that sees you contesting a new defensive position.

 

Can you manage to establish your forward outpost before your enemy can get theirs up and running?

Tournament Ready

All of these new missions and terrain rules are brilliant for all games of Warhammer 40,000, but they really shine when it comes to competitive play. No longer will you be at the mercy of random terrain placement – you’ll now bring your own and have just what you need when you deploy your army. Choose the exact terrain you want to complement the units in your force and lead your army to tournament glory!

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Whether you already have an impressive terrain collection or are looking at starting a new one, the Chapter Approved: Tactical Deployment Mission Pack is ideal, and it’s available to pre-order from Saturday. In the meantime, pick up some new terrain and start planning your own kill boxes.

[Ish]

The only negative I’m seeing with this is that, although the shape of footprint of the terrain is defined, the dimensions of that footprint are not...

Which will make it tricky to use some of the official terrain models that are multi-part (like the Storage Fane) in the example. But it will also make it very difficult to use homemade or third-party terrain.

[Tao Tsê-Mung]

I have distinct reservations. Obviously this is going to be another windfall for GW to sell 400pts of overpriced terrain to every single player instead of fostering the creativity of creating your own terrain from scratch/bits.

More importantly get ready to see loads of gimmicky abuse from the added special abilities of terrain. Think Biologus Putrifier x3 with 8x Storage Fane grenade barrages. Or every Tau unit with overwatch on 5s rerolling 1s. Necron players can invest a fortune in the new monoliths to have 4+ reanimation rolls across the board.

The range of abilities across all factions will make it impossible to avoid special terrain rules not being exploitable by someone - and those people will show up with the max number of those terrain. It’s basic escalation.

After seeing how gimmicky/broken the tournament winning lists always are its impossible to believe this is accidental anymore. GW obviously cares about selling plastic far more than balanced playability. Or even basic fun.

[Ish]

Well, that’s why avoid tournaments...

[Tao Tsê-Mung]

14 minutes ago, Ish said:

Well, that’s why avoid tournaments...

Agreed, but the tenor of tournaments informs the escalation of casual games. Batreps and tournament organizers get pressure from GW and viewers to show the new rules/models which also sets the expectation of players. It’s an intentional appeal to people’s interest in seeing and doing the newest exciting thing - but it’s not tempered with a spirit of fairness because the spirit of profiteering trumps all other concerns. And the pace is clearly accelerating. The first codex of 9th is still a month away from being in peoples’ hands and GW is already replacing the original core rules with game-changing points/stats changes and supplements. Each of which requires considerable monetary investment.

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

The only negative I’m seeing with this is that, although the shape of footprint of the terrain is defined, the dimensions of that footprint are not...

Which will make it tricky to use some of the official terrain models that are multi-part (like the Storage Fane) in the example. But it will also make it very difficult to use homemade or third-party terrain.

Agreed. We will have to make adjustments or find similarities between such things and use those or even make our own based on the existing rules. It is possible GW added in something to make your own or for custom terrain. 

 

Dimensions wont be immediate but overall it wont be hard. Take the Storage Fane, they show you where things should line up so you can just get a nice sized bottom for that and line it all up and glue it down. 

[Ish]

I’m hoping we’ll see official dimensions published in either the accompanying rulebook or an online document (akin to the official base size suggestions for AoS). Absent that, I imagine it won’t be long until the fanbase hive-mind compiles such a document.

I don’t mind the idea of terrain rules, per se, as I think it lends itself very well to narrative-driven storytelling gameplay. But I am cautious about how exactly they plan to implement it.

[Sgt. Rock]

I mean, I feel like this is starting to turn into a discussion akin to the new table sizes... you don't HAVE to use these new rules. 40k has gotten by for what, 30 years now? Give or take? Without this kind of stuff. If someone absolutely hard-line refuses to play without these new rules, well, you don't have to play with them. Personally, coming from Infinity, I want to see terrain take a bigger role in the game, but not to this degree; it's massively overcomplicating an already complicated set of terrain rules. It's neat and all, but also wholly unnecessary. I don't imagine I'll be playing many games with it.

[Ish]

One thing I really wish GW would [s]steal[/s] take inspiration from Inifinity and Malifaux is giving every model an official height stat. That seems like an easy way to eliminate so many arguments about dynamically posed models or models with cool conversions... “Yes, my Hero McCoolname is standing on a cool rock making him 2 1/2” tall. But he’s supposed to only be 2” tall, so yes, he has cover behind this 2 1/4” tall wall.”

[Brother Glacius]

My cynical side must be up because this just screams money grab to me. If you need more [big bad swear word] to deal with, then I guess it is okay...but seems 40K is pretty heavy on the rules thing already.

[Andrewgeddon]

I would never play with these rules, but I certainly don't disparage anyone for wanting to. Just seems like a weird release, not really sure who this is for? Was anyone telling GW that they wanted to lug around a bunch of terrain in addition to their army? 

[Ish]

54 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

I would never play with these rules, but I certainly don't disparage anyone for wanting to. Just seems like a weird release, not really sure who this is for? Was anyone telling GW that they wanted to lug around a bunch of terrain in addition to their army? 

Maybe the “black shirt” managers of GW’s own retail stores were sick of having to build (and repair) their shop’s in house terrain? 

[Tao Tsê-Mung]

53 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

My cynical side must be up because this just screams money grab to me. If you need more [big bad swear word] to deal with, then I guess it is okay...but seems 40K is pretty heavy on the rules thing already.

Exactly. Literally everyone is waiting on their complete faction ruleset to go with 9th/points changes and GW is focusing their time and energy on manipulating people into buying new terrain kits with new rules that will likely disrupt the balance again and then be nerfed after the kits are sold.

Any other game company would finish the codexes as soon as possible instead of dragging them out for year to sell us plastic walls. Or the transition would have been a lot smoother if they made points changes by faction as codexes armies shifted from 8th PA to 9th.

But having worked in marketing to put myself through college I know the biggest trend in advertising lately is triggering people’s fomo anxiety. All the release uncertainty and faction unbalancing is an intentional play to manipulate people into buying more plastic in the meantime while they have to wait for their current faction update.

When the game is already this expensive and their profits already soaring, not to mention all the economic hardship people are experiencing right now, its a pretty telling message about how GW really views their players.

[Inquisitor66]

Playing devils advocate

Encouraging players to bring their own terrain removes pressure from tournament organizers to be able to fully create X numbers of tables by themselves.

Keeping in mind that 9th requires more terrain than 8th this could help tournament from bearing the full cost of the needed ed extra terrain.

Also, by giving rules for placing terrain it puts less pressure on organizers to create fully balanced tables since the players can fill gaps.

 

I dont personally like collecting or painting terrain, but it's a big part of the hobby. If I spent hours painting a big cool terrain piece I'd like the opportunity to show it off and use it in games, no different than other big set piece units.

[Ish]

I honestly have always enjoyed building and painting terrain more than building and painting models. It's actually my favorite part of the wargaming hobby other than actually playing the game! 

[Brother Glacius]

40K already has so many things to remember. Not only does nearly every unit seem to have something unique about it, but then you have auras and CPs to worry about. Now you gotta try to remember what the hell terrain does too. Give it a rest. 🙂

[Tao Tsê-Mung]

Its not the bringing of terrain that’s an issue. I totally get that about making life easier for TOs. A lot of tourneys so far have been light on terrain and this helps alleviate that.

What’s getting too pay-to-win for me is the special exclusive buffs from GW terrain which will be further tailored to people’s lists. Yes, you could technically make your own terrain and use the rules - but there’s no guarantee the TO will allow your particular piece.

And most people won’t build their own and will just accept the basic implication which is pretty obvious. Buy these expensive terrain sets and get tailored new buffs not available without them.

It just furthers the power creep and engenders more people to the “Buy the next mathematically superior model to have fun or get stomped by the guy who did.” mentality. GW’s drive for quarterly sales & marketing strategy literally encourages people to be That Guy.

As someone who is new to the game from tabletop board games & rpgs it’s really becoming a serious detractor. I’m starting to wish someone had honestly told me how defined by sales this game is. I’ve never seen a game half as heavy-handed as this.

It’s only the people across the table from me that keep me coming back.

[Sgt. Rock]

29 minutes ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

It’s only the people across the table from me that keep me coming back.

That's the true strength of 40k. As someone who's been playing off and on for 20 years or so, I can honestly say that the biggest mistake people make with 40k is taking it too seriously. It's a beer and pretzels game, and as long as everyone involved understands that, it's a lot of fun. You just have to understand and accept that GW is GW, and they're going to do [big bad swear word] like this. If you're okay with it, groovy, you play 40k and have fun. If not, you move on to other games, like a lot of us have in the past. 

Just be selective about where you play and who you play with, and you can have a ton of fun with the game. Avoid tournaments and competitive players, and you'll be fine.

[Lyraeus]

16 hours ago, Inquisitor66 said:

Playing devils advocate

Encouraging players to bring their own terrain removes pressure from tournament organizers to be able to fully create X numbers of tables by themselves.

Keeping in mind that 9th requires more terrain than 8th this could help tournament from bearing the full cost of the needed ed extra terrain.

Also, by giving rules for placing terrain it puts less pressure on organizers to create fully balanced tables since the players can fill gaps.

 

I dont personally like collecting or painting terrain, but it's a big part of the hobby. If I spent hours painting a big cool terrain piece I'd like the opportunity to show it off and use it in games, no different than other big set piece units.

To jump on this, people can create display boards that also allow people to have their terrain to come with their armies. 

[Lyraeus]

22 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

I mean, I feel like this is starting to turn into a discussion akin to the new table sizes... you don't HAVE to use these new rules. 40k has gotten by for what, 30 years now? Give or take? Without this kind of stuff. If someone absolutely hard-line refuses to play without these new rules, well, you don't have to play with them. Personally, coming from Infinity, I want to see terrain take a bigger role in the game, but not to this degree; it's massively overcomplicating an already complicated set of terrain rules. It's neat and all, but also wholly unnecessary. I don't imagine I'll be playing many games with it.

Getting it done for a length of time does not mean that it got it done well. 

Everyone will have an opinion, just like in DnD, some will still want to play ADnD more than 5th or Pathfinder but you can still see progress 

Change and new things allows for new and interesting stories to be generated. People have stories from Rogue Trader era to 3rd edition to 8th edition and new ideas means more of that so I am all for innovation.

 

15 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

40K already has so many things to remember. Not only does nearly every unit seem to have something unique about it, but then you have auras and CPs to worry about. Now you gotta try to remember what the hell terrain does too. Give it a rest. 🙂

I think that is why they provide cards but I also suspect people will bring terrain not just for the abilities but for the cover they get FOR that terrain. For instance, if I can bring 2 5" tall obscuring buildings that I can deploy to my hearts desires then I dont care IF they have an ability (well as long as its not too negative) I will like them for that sweet sweet blocking LoS.

 

16 hours ago, Ish said:

I honestly have always enjoyed building and painting terrain more than building and painting models. It's actually my favorite part of the wargaming hobby other than actually playing the game! 

Terrain is easy mode for painting. You cant go as wrong with terrain painting as it is the Bob Ross of modeling. There are no mistakes just happy accidents. 

 

13 hours ago, Tao Tsê-Mung said:

Its not the bringing of terrain that’s an issue. I totally get that about making life easier for TOs. A lot of tourneys so far have been light on terrain and this helps alleviate that.

What’s getting too pay-to-win for me is the special exclusive buffs from GW terrain which will be further tailored to people’s lists. Yes, you could technically make your own terrain and use the rules - but there’s no guarantee the TO will allow your particular piece.

And most people won’t build their own and will just accept the basic implication which is pretty obvious. Buy these expensive terrain sets and get tailored new buffs not available without them.

It just furthers the power creep and engenders more people to the “Buy the next mathematically superior model to have fun or get stomped by the guy who did.” mentality. GW’s drive for quarterly sales & marketing strategy literally encourages people to be That Guy.

As someone who is new to the game from tabletop board games & rpgs it’s really becoming a serious detractor. I’m starting to wish someone had honestly told me how defined by sales this game is. I’ve never seen a game half as heavy-handed as this.

It’s only the people across the table from me that keep me coming back.

Light on terrain in 9th is bad. If this allows organizers to supplement their tables to push out the terrain further then so be it. If people DONT want to bring their own they could likely use the terrain from the Tournament but lose any bonuses from it. 

I mean pay to win is sort of what games like this is. Someone with the money to buy 3 Repulsor Executioners for instance could do a lot better than someone who didnt have that money and had to cobble together things. 

 

For me personally I am TRYING to become a better person to play against... its gotten to the point where I am playing Grot Tanks on TTS so I can learn to be more casual. I love orks, they are simply the best faction for me... I can play so many crazy things that work because I make them work and dont have to worry about being OP because orks dont rise to that level. They are just crazy and weird and that makes me happy which means these terrain ideas will be fun to make orky versions of.

If a TO is allowing custom terrain but wont allow modified versions that follow the same dimensions then they should be called out for it. That is a tournament that I wont want to attend in the future. 

We dont know about power creep just yet. So far GW has shown that while Space Marines ARE getting new and good models they dont seem to have the same oppressive creep to them like their 2.0 codex did so we will have to see what happens there. 

Heh... the game isnt defined by sales. Not in the least. Well, ork armies are not... Geargutz makes wonderful 3d models I can print so no sales required 😛 

 

[Ish]

I think tournament players are as much to blame for the state of the game as the company.

I don’t mean everyone that plays in a tournament, mind you, I just mean the people that seem to only play in tournaments and treat other games as practice for tournaments. The type of people who will respond to a question about painting techniques, setting lore, or some other comment about the hobby on r/WarhammerCompetitive with some variation of “This is the competitive subreddit. GTFO, newb!”

They seem to expect WH40k to be as carefully tuned as a Maclaren super-car, as finely balanced as chess, and for the company to have the ability to release instant patches for every flaw like some sort of video game... 

Look, I hate to be the kind of guy who tells other people they’re “having fun wrong,” but sometimes...

 

[Lyraeus]

6 minutes ago, Ish said:

I think tournament players are as much to blame for the state of the game as the company.

I don’t mean everyone that plays in a tournament, mind you, I just mean the people that seem to only play in tournaments and treat other games as practice for tournaments. The type of people who will respond to a question about painting techniques, setting lore, or some other comment about the hobby on r/WarhammerCompetitive with some variation of “This is the competitive subreddit. GTFO, newb!”

They seem to expect WH40k to be as carefully tuned as a Maclaren super-car, as finely balanced as chess, and for the company to have the ability to release instant patches for every flaw like some sort of video game... 

Look, I hate to be the kind of guy who tells other people they’re “having fun wrong,” but sometimes...

 

A lot of people only play in tournaments because that is the only games they can get in. Many people live in areas with limited players around them so they go to tournaments to get 3-5 games in. Hell some people are lucky to get more than 1 game in a month when the world is not in lockdown.

 

I have contentions with the Comp40k reddit. Competitive is what people make is. Australia will have a different competitive environment than the UK or US for instance. 

[Ish]

I don’t think I’m wording it right. My beef isn’t with tourney players, so much as with a certain type of tournament player.

 

[Lyraeus]

33 minutes ago, Ish said:

I don’t think I’m wording it right. My beef isn’t with tourney players, so much as with a certain type of tournament player.

 

Sure, there are people like me who play way to competitively then there are the WAAC players. I am not a WAAC player (hence why I play orks 😛 )

The game isnt slated to WAAC players though, this is slated to those who are creative and want to have more control over their games. At least from my perspective 

[Brother Glacius]

Did they really need to release a book on terrain? I think any other army book would have been more welcomed by the community. Plus, adding that now when the game is still so new? Why not a year from now in order to add that extra dimension to the rules...why right out of the gate when most people are still coming to grips with the existing meta.