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It is that time. We are playing in person again and so I want to start an Open crusade! This is not going to have a time limit, this is not going to be hyper restrictive. It is a true Open Crusade. Th

Awesome! I'm totally up for this

Week one Missions are up!

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1 hour ago, Brother Glacius said:

I agree with Salty. What's the point of having an ability in the army if it puts you at a disadvantage to use it? I'll have to find a different army to play. 

I understand where @Lyraeus is coming from, I played a couple games last year with chaos using the free demon summoning and with certain chaos factions they can summon a poop load of deamons in a round...and if people take advantage it could get really out of hand.

example: thousand sons can use there 1cp strat "sorcerous pact" to add a dice to their summoning roll with no penalitys for doubles or triples. making it real easy to summon a 185pt/10pl daemon prince or a 240pts/12pl for 30 pink horrors

I for one would find it hard to play a 500pt game if have my opponent summon an extra 200pts of deamons turn one

With that said, Chaos Space Marines need all the help they can get these days and the ability to summon seems to be a mechanic to help balance

I think there's a solution somewhere... like limiting summoning to only once per turn maybe to keep the narrative games fun for all or we can just keep the the super summoning strats out

just my two cents,

 

p.s. I'm playing Necrons because Im lazy and dont think Ill have time to get my CSM painted in time 😉

 

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18 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Ok, I will compromise. You can do summoning but its still reinforcement points. This gives you an advantage as you can play at a higher point game against people while not having enough points in your supply for that but it is fine. 

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am not sure I understand this statement. From my understanding of Crusade, we all start out with 1000pts for our army. We then have the option of spending RPs to increase that army size (1RP - 100pts). We then purchase units that will fit within that cap for our army. Those units are static once purchased unless RPs are spent to change them.

My understanding of reinforcement points is that those points come out of your army limit for that game. So if we are playing a 500pt game and I want 100pts for reinforcements, my army on the table will only be 400pts.

In the context of a Crusade, this means if I want 200pts for Summoning, my Crusade list will actually only have 800pts of purchased units. So while I have 200pts in my army that is flexible, those 200pts will never gain xp or any other boons (or negatives) from the Crusade.

Lets say I am going to play a 500pt game against someone. I can either field 500pts of my purchased units, or some number less than that, and leave the rest for my summoning. Regardless, I will never have more than 500pts of units on the field and once I summon up to that 500pt cap, I cannot summon anything else, even if my summoned unit(s) are destroyed.

So how does this allow me to play at a higher point game?

The only thing I can think of, is that you are saying I can spend 1000pts on buying units. But when I choose to play and wish to use summoning, I can bring less than the cap and reserve points for summoning.

If the later is the case, then I don't really see that as unbalanced. I can't say I was ever concerned about the Crusade List. I would gladly build a 750pt list and reserve 250pts for summoning if it allowed me to "freely summon up to 250pts" in a game regardless of game point limit size. i.e. in a 500pt game, I could bring 500pts from my crusade list and still be able to summon up to the reserved 250.

The Pros and Cons of that approach are as follows:

Pro - I have the chance of putting more points on the table than my opponent. However, those points are capped based on my summoning reserve.

Con - My Crusade army has fewer unit options to choose from. The summoned units never improve. Summoning has inherent risks/costs associated with it already. I would also have to spend RP on more points in order to field higher point armies.

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1 minute ago, Brother Glacius said:

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am not sure I understand this statement. From my understanding of Crusade, we all start out with 1000pts for our army. We then have the option of spending RPs to increase that army size (1RP - 100pts). We then purchase units that will fit within that cap for our army. Those units are static once purchased unless RPs are spent to change them.

My understanding of reinforcement points is that those points come out of your army limit for that game. So if we are playing a 500pt game and I want 100pts for reinforcements, my army on the table will only be 400pts.

In the context of a Crusade, this means if I want 200pts for Summoning, my Crusade list will actually only have 800pts of purchased units. So while I have 200pts in my army that is flexible, those 200pts will never gain xp or any other boons (or negatives) from the Crusade.

Lets say I am going to play a 500pt game against someone. I can either field 500pts of my purchased units, or some number less than that, and leave the rest for my summoning. Regardless, I will never have more than 500pts of units on the field and once I summon up to that 500pt cap, I cannot summon anything else, even if my summoned unit(s) are destroyed.

So how does this allow me to play at a higher point game?

The only thing I can think of, is that you are saying I can spend 1000pts on buying units. But when I choose to play and wish to use summoning, I can bring less than the cap and reserve points for summoning.

If the later is the case, then I don't really see that as unbalanced. I can't say I was ever concerned about the Crusade List. I would gladly build a 750pt list and reserve 250pts for summoning if it allowed me to "freely summon up to 250pts" in a game regardless of game point limit size. i.e. in a 500pt game, I could bring 500pts from my crusade list and still be able to summon up to the reserved 250.

The Pros and Cons of that approach are as follows:

Pro - I have the chance of putting more points on the table than my opponent. However, those points are capped based on my summoning reserve.

Con - My Crusade army has fewer unit options to choose from. The summoned units never improve. Summoning has inherent risks/costs associated with it already. I would also have to spend RP on more points in order to field higher point armies.

You dont need to take points away from your Order of Battle. Just the points from your list. You never have a Crusade Card for summoned units so they never take up room on your Order of Battle.

 

So, if you are playing a 500pt game and you bring 500pts you have no points to summon with. 

If you are playing a 500pt game and bring 400, you have 100pts to use for summoning. 

Part of the reason this is, is that summoning is extremely flexible. Playing against someone and you need nurglings to hold points, well you can summon those, maybe next game you need Demonettes to be annoying? You can. 

 

Now, how does this let you play a higher point game? Lets say you only have 1000pts in your Order of Battle but want to play the 1500pt Strike Force Mission as it will give you a bonus you want. Well you as a Chaos player can play with 1k and have 500pts open to summon with. 

 

I do not think that at any point a player should be able to bring in new units without paying for them. This includes Nids bringing back Gaunts as well as that also requires Reinforcement Points. 

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I have decided to go with something completely different! Space Marines, The Star Dragons are coming (Raven Guard)

That's right, im done getting my a** handed to me by them so Im gonna join em

I feel a bit dirty joining the imperials but it should be fun, haven't played them for a long...long time 🙂

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My situation is thus: for the near future I am pretty much homebound, half-vaxed, with free time confined to evenings after my kid is in bed. would love to get a Combat Patrol game in (would actually be my first game in 9th), but would have to be masked in my garage (live in Milwaukie; have table, terrain, and booze) on a weekend evening. Anyone interested, ping me.

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On 4/13/2021 at 9:53 AM, Lyraeus said:

I do not think that at any point a player should be able to bring in new units without paying for them. This includes Nids bringing back Gaunts as well as that also requires Reinforcement Points. 

I guess we'll just disagree here. I think that the ability to summon those units is built into the cost of the army/character. By taking it away, you are removing an inherent ability of the army. It would be like taking away And They Shall Know No Fear, or removing the Reanimation Protocols. There is a cost associated with Deamonic Rituals, it just isn't points. I've offered quite a few suggestions on how to balance the ability.

As much as I'd like to play my chaos, I don't feel particularly great about having to remove one of my army abilities or hamstring my force to use it. I think for the time being I'll dust off my AdMech as they haven't seen any action in a couple of years, nor paint for that matter.

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2 hours ago, Mustache Dorn said:

My situation is thus: for the near future I am pretty much homebound, half-vaxed, with free time confined to evenings after my kid is in bed. would love to get a Combat Patrol game in (would actually be my first game in 9th), but would have to be masked in my garage (live in Milwaukie; have table, terrain, and booze) on a weekend evening. Anyone interested, ping me.

If I can get there via bus I should be fine. 

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23 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I guess we'll just disagree here. I think that the ability to summon those units is built into the cost of the army/character. By taking it away, you are removing an inherent ability of the army. It would be like taking away And They Shall Know No Fear, or removing the Reanimation Protocols. There is a cost associated with Deamonic Rituals, it just isn't points. I've offered quite a few suggestions on how to balance the ability.

As much as I'd like to play my chaos, I don't feel particularly great about having to remove one of my army abilities or hamstring my force to use it. I think for the time being I'll dust off my AdMech as they haven't seen any action in a couple of years, nor paint for that matter.

The points were based off the reinforcement points system, otherwise your lone summoning character would not be sub 100pts when you can get 300pts for free. 

 

In Age of Sigmar summoning is fully built in and expected. In 40k its an interesting mechanic but it allows for some very bad set up if abused. To prevent abuse we have base rules for it. 

 

I read someone's anecdotal take on crusade and they talked a little of this. 

https://doll-wars.com/reflecting-on-crusades-narrative-gaming/

Here is the passage in question
image.thumb.png.ce11a291ba6fbf3702915a82c4723760.png

 

I am willing to compromise here and if that is adding an Requisition where you get X free summoning points we can discuss that but I want fair games  and as few hard feelings as possible. 

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I played through a crusade where free summoning was allowed and it became pretty degenerate really quickly.
3 Characters started summoning hordes of poxwalkers, greater demons and other characters that on the next turn, could summon as well. 

Its a unfun mechanic and unless the narrative calls for it, I think reinforcement points should be enforced imo.

That way both sides are on a even footing. Its a bummer that the mechanic is so poorly thought out but the Chaos player isn't gimped from having their forces accounted for when mustering their forces.

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2 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

if the players are being dicks, then yes, it can certainly be abused. I don't think anyone here is advocating for that at all if you have read the posts. No one is asking for unlimited summoning. But there are still ways of having summoning without screwing over the chaos players.

That is the issue. I could know you for 20 years and I would still make this same ruling. I cant set up a favoritism situation where I can let you summon because you will be "responsible" with it but limit others, that is unfair and uncalled for. GW has rules set for this, so we either use them or ban them completely. I have been making compromises but you want something and are not compromising here. Sure you dont want unlimited summoning but then again you asked for that earlier, now you just want to summon and have more points than what your opponent gets to start with and as I said we can look at it but it is still not something I am comfortable with as it still creates an unfair advantage and not everyone you play will be okay with it. Sure they may smile and say "sure" but that doesn't mean they are okay with it. 

 

I suspect that GW will have better summoning rules when the 9th ed chaos book comes out but just like we have 2 wound Deathguard and 1 wound CSM we are stuck waiting. 

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7 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I've offered suggestions that do limit summoning and still applies cost to it. And its fine that you aren't going to use it. I don't have a problem with the rules you set. It just means I'm not going to run CSM. 

It is unfortunate. CSM are in a rough spot regardless. I do look forward to see what you make. 

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Heh, I'm still working on my army list. I actually subscribed to the GW app so that I could get the list builder...but then noticed they don't allow you to build a Crusade list there. Typical. Anywho, I think I'm starting to get the hang of the Crusade list. I actually don't need to purchase units in the context of a detachment. I just need to purchase an array of units that will allow me to fill detachments. But when I get a force together for an actual game, then I'm bound by the detachment and point restrictions of that game and my units fill those slots.

I am slowly getting there. I also have to admit I'm a bit annoyed that GW releases a forge world compendium book for 9th and I'll have to spend $65 on a book to unlock two units for my army....ugh.

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3 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

I actually subscribed to the GW app so that I could get the list builder...but then noticed they don't allow you to build a Crusade list there. Typical.

they're supposed to be working on it. For now I just built a patrol detachment. The [big bad swear word] thing about it is that you can't edit some list details (list points, army name) after creating it.

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51 minutes ago, Mustache Dorn said:

they're supposed to be working on it. For now I just built a patrol detachment. The [big bad swear word] thing about it is that you can't edit some list details (list points, army name) after creating it.

I do a Reinforcements Detachment in Battlescribe. 

 

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3 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

Heh, I'm still working on my army list. I actually subscribed to the GW app so that I could get the list builder...but then noticed they don't allow you to build a Crusade list there. Typical. Anywho, I think I'm starting to get the hang of the Crusade list. I actually don't need to purchase units in the context of a detachment. I just need to purchase an array of units that will allow me to fill detachments. But when I get a force together for an actual game, then I'm bound by the detachment and point restrictions of that game and my units fill those slots.

I am slowly getting there. I also have to admit I'm a bit annoyed that GW releases a forge world compendium book for 9th and I'll have to spend $65 on a book to unlock two units for my army....ugh.

Which units? Wahapedia might have it already updated and I have a PDF of it 

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On 4/15/2021 at 12:47 PM, Lyraeus said:

If I can get there via bus I should be fine. 

This is probably the closest stop that runs on weekends and is still about a 25 minute walk, so probably a heck of a trek for you with a limited weekend schedule. So probably not a great prospect. I'll get a taker or two I'm sure (and in no rush as I still have a dread to build), or I'll hang until immunization permits my re-entrance to the real world.

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Just now, Mustache Dorn said:

This is probably the closest stop that runs on weekends and is still about a 25 minute walk, so probably a heck of a trek for you with a limited weekend schedule. So probably not a great prospect. I'll get a taker or two I'm sure (and in no rush as I still have a dread to build), or I'll hang until immunization permits my re-entrance to the real world.

It would be the way back that stops me. How about this Saturday if we can see when is the latest I can get back by?

A game is a game and I have no issue taking a trek as long as I have a realistic way back. I am fully vaccinated (yay for being a VA guinea pig!) so hopefully that helps. 

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