RobynMM Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 Big fan of the books, read several times, my 13yr old is reading them now (on book 7). We’re enjoying the Amazon series as well. Lots of healthy discussion at home about the changes and why. The original series of books had a lot of problematic areas that the tv series is looking to avoid, the maturing of the content is a bit jarring at first but understandable from a product standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted December 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 I'd love to hear what some of those issues are. I'm not enjoying the story changes. They are diminishing all the wrong things that were core to the series. What really sucks though, is that they could have at least softened the blow to the Jordan fans by being upfront with all the changes. Hell, Jordan even laid the groundwork for it. He basically had a multi-verse for his world. There were hundreds if not more copies of the world where things went differently. They could have simply started with some opening which alluded to that, that this was one possible turning of the wheel, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobynMM Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 20 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said: I'd love to hear what some of those issues are. I'm not enjoying the story changes. They are diminishing all the wrong things that were core to the series. What really sucks though, is that they could have at least softened the blow to the Jordan fans by being upfront with all the changes. Hell, Jordan even laid the groundwork for it. He basically had a multi-verse for his world. There were hundreds if not more copies of the world where things went differently. They could have simply started with some opening which alluded to that, that this was one possible turning of the wheel, etc. Interestingly my kid has decided that this telling is from a different turning of the wheel so that perspective doesn’t need to be implicitly spelled out, just a mindset you can take on. One of the core themes in the series that is a problematic point is the binary treatment of gender. It is ingrained in pretty much everything and comes with some pretty heavy gender stereotypes bordering on misogyny at points. I know I had read a few articles prior to the show release that said there were going to be major differences so I was ready for that from the start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 17 hours ago, Brother Glacius said: I completely disagree. I have no clue what the hell those writers are thinking or what Brandon Dumbass is greenlighting. But the show they are producing is nothing like Jordan's books and you wonder why they even wanted to use them. Why choose a man's legacy and then crap all over it by making massive changes to the very plot and world that he created? Amazon can suck a dick. This is pretty much the majority of what is done these days -big money media company buys rights to something - and do what they will with it (regardless of initial fan base) (looking at you Disney). they get it “wrong” most of the time according to the diehard fans. but it’s really another type of media - and the aim is to draw in fans who may never had heard of the original work. It’s a new version- and it is for a new audience… If the original content owner didn’t want to cash in on the creation… It wouldn’t have gotten purchased and remade. -d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 32 minutes ago, RobynMM said: Interestingly my kid has decided that this telling is from a different turning of the wheel so that perspective doesn’t need to be implicitly spelled out, just a mindset you can take on. One of the core themes in the series that is a problematic point is the binary treatment of gender. It is ingrained in pretty much everything and comes with some pretty heavy gender stereotypes bordering on misogyny at points. I know I had read a few articles prior to the show release that said there were going to be major differences so I was ready for that from the start. that is an awesome perspective ... the different turning of the wheel - I love that explanation. I have not read the books - and don't intend to. -d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobynMM Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 On 11/23/2021 at 8:18 AM, Brother Glacius said: For whatever reason, the show writers decided to throw out all of the "coming of age" story arcs. That one decision to make them all older has pretty much wiped out most of the first book...heck, probably the first three books. So many of their decisions and the way they act are based on their age and ignorance/innocence. How are they going to portray Mat's slip into darkness due to the dagger when he's already of questionable character? Are they going to leave out all of the awkward romantic stumbles that commonly occur to the group? Not happy with that choice. Idk - how much fun would watching a bunch of 17 yr olds talk about how bad they are at talking to girls? That can easily take over the actual storylines going on and quickly devolve into a CW coming of age melodrama when that isn't the core of the story, just flavor. I do agree that if the expectation was a YA family friendly fantasy series this is not it, certainly has been some awkward moments watching together with the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 7 hours ago, Torg said: This is pretty much the majority of what is done these days -big money media company buys rights to something - and do what they will with it (regardless of initial fan base) (looking at you Disney). they get it “wrong” most of the time according to the diehard fans. but it’s really another type of media - and the aim is to draw in fans who may never had heard of the original work. It’s a new version- and it is for a new audience… If the original content owner didn’t want to cash in on the creation… It wouldn’t have gotten purchased and remade. The part I don't get is why pay for name recognition if the product you put out is going to piss of the people who are the core fans of the property? You'd be better off using a different name and writing the same story so that people can give it a chance on its own merits and not be roasting you over an open fire in the reviews. Because of the name I will never watch it. I'd generally give a fantasy series a chance though and would watch it if it was something that I was not counting on butchering my memories. Do they really get that much free advertising from the name that it is worth the costs? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 The old or existing fans of the original work are not typically the target audience… they will get more folks watching the show (and advertising) than ever were really familiar with the books. Also, they (Amazon in this case) didn’t make any money from the original works - so those fans - really sent part of the calculation. If any of the new viewers are interested to dig into the books - that’s a bonus to whomever owns those book rights - not this media version. Bottom line - they (the streaming media company)make money doing it this way - and the small fraction of disgruntled book fans don’t really register in these calculations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 12 hours ago, Torg said: The old or existing fans of the original work are not typically the target audience… they will get more folks watching the show (and advertising) than ever were really familiar with the books. Also, they (Amazon in this case) didn’t make any money from the original works - so those fans - really sent part of the calculation. If any of the new viewers are interested to dig into the books - that’s a bonus to whomever owns those book rights - not this media version. Bottom line - they (the streaming media company)make money doing it this way - and the small fraction of disgruntled book fans don’t really register in these calculations. I don't disagree with what you're saying here. I'm asking where in that calculus is there any benefit to Amazon? Why would Amazon license the WoT name if they a) aren't interested in the existing fanbase, b) won't see addition profit from someone watching the show and then buying the books because they liked it. At that point why pay licensing instead of naming the main character Joe and writing the same show? I mean, what I am hearing is that without the names you would not really recognize it since they changed the ages, changed the path, changed the main points of contention, etc. At that point all you are paying for is the names and what do you gain from that aside from pissing of people like BroG and me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Trainer Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 42 minutes ago, Duckman said: I don't disagree with what you're saying here. I'm asking where in that calculus is there any benefit to Amazon? Why would Amazon license the WoT name if they a) aren't interested in the existing fanbase, b) won't see addition profit from someone watching the show and then buying the books because they liked it. At that point why pay licensing instead of naming the main character Joe and writing the same show? I mean, what I am hearing is that without the names you would not really recognize it since they changed the ages, changed the path, changed the main points of contention, etc. At that point all you are paying for is the names and what do you gain from that aside from pissing of people like BroG and me? It's streamlined. Honestly, as Robyn said, it's a flavor. Sure, you're not getting 100% of it, but 14,000 pages later there was a LOT of fat Jordan should have cut. Also his own publisher didn't want to give him approval for more than 3 of the original starting books. They knew how long winded he was as a writer. That said, Amazon also can't afford 14 seasons, and a lot of the 'lesser' content. Game of thrones even cut short on S8 for cost reasons. It's holding up well, it's not perfect to the book, but it's enough for people who haven't read it to follow along enough and not give away future details. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 I think you are missing my point. It's not a question of why make a show. The show in and of itself is fine. The question is why pay to use the name. You remember the Will Smith "I, Robot" movie? They paid a bunch of money for the rights to use "three laws of robotics". the name "I, Robot" and I would have to go look up the IMDB entry to see how many names they used (Dr. Calvin - yes, R. Daneel Olivaw - no, etc.)... They made it an action film with essentially zero commonality with Azimov beyond that. Why spend the money for the name if it does not matter? What are you gaining that is worth the licensing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 its about the $ - they make money - that is the only calculus they need. The name recognition will seemingly give it legitimacy to those folks whom vaguely have heard of the books - and it sounds nice enough to the marketing team... and the story although loosely (or very loosely) followed is unique enough to buy rather than paying someone to make a facsimile of the story without being the story lol... (no need for defense lawyers if you buy the rights to it.) I am not sure as to the real numbers / facts or percentages - but I doubt book sales of folks having seen a show - then wanting to buy the books - is the target reasoning to making the show in the first place. I find it doubtful its even a consideration within the planning. Unfortunately - the basics of this is - the diehard / pissed off fans - aren't enough of a concern when compared to the advertising and streaming dollars they will make from having a fantasy show to compete with the other networks fantasy shows. GoT made big money for HBO... Amazon, Netflix and others jumped on the fantasy show band wagon ... and went out at purchased rights to fantasy stories ... in hopes of getting more of that fantasy show money. If the show gets renewed... they made some money for amazon... enough for amazon to roll the dice for another season. it is a different medium - so shows will always have a hard time matching up to a book series - you have to make adjustments or changes just to get meat of the story on screen and keeping it under budgetary restraints. -d 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blustorm Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 Honestly, it's starting to sound like Amazon made a loose adaptation of WoT, similar to when MTV/Spike made a loose adaptation of the Shannara book series. I'm guessing both series were made primarily to appeal to a YA/Teen audience and that's why a 100% verbatim adaptation was not made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, Blustorm said: Honestly, it's starting to sound like Amazon made a loose adaptation of WoT, similar to when MTV/Spike made a loose adaptation of the Shannara book series. I'm guessing both series were made primarily to appeal to a YA/Teen audience and that's why a 100% verbatim adaptation was not made. Normally I would agree with this but isn't the WoT adaptation a more mature adaptation/interpretation? I mean, I understand why they made the choice for the show but as a departure from the books doesn't it make the series *less* YA-friendly? (I have not been watching so that is a legitimate question.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobynMM Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 I feel like I'm not the only series fan that is totally fine with the changes made, i very much disagree that this is an in name only adaptation. Its a modernization in a different medium. Most of the changes are fairly easily explained by production limitations and cultural modernization. So much of the books would have made horrible tv, stone faced aes sedai and warders not reacting to things, endless internal monologue, 147 different character points of view (thats a true stat right there). Anyone want to talk about the actual changes and why? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 56 minutes ago, Blustorm said: Honestly, it's starting to sound like Amazon made a loose adaptation of WoT, similar to when MTV/Spike made a loose adaptation of the Shannara book series. I'm guessing both series were made primarily to appeal to a YA/Teen audience and that's why a 100% verbatim adaptation was not made. I had trouble with Shannara... the last season was practically unwatchable lol. I long long ago read the first book... name recognition was about all I could remember lol. But THAT show was very CW ... pretty faces... weak ... I MEAN WEAK acting... and pre-2000's BBC-esq special effects lol -d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 36 minutes ago, RobynMM said: I feel like I'm not the only series fan that is totally fine with the changes made, i very much disagree that this is an in name only adaptation. Its a modernization in a different medium. Most of the changes are fairly easily explained by production limitations and cultural modernization. So much of the books would have made horrible tv, stone faced aes sedai and warders not reacting to things, endless internal monologue, 147 different character points of view (thats a true stat right there). Anyone want to talk about the actual changes and why? I agree with this assessment - although I never read the books (not my type of fantasy... just never appealed to me)... Maybe it would have - but in the 1980's I was pretty deep into Elric (or anything Moorecock), Conan and comics lol. -d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blustorm Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Duckman said: Normally I would agree with this but isn't the WoT adaptation a more mature adaptation/interpretation? I mean, I understand why they made the choice for the show but as a departure from the books doesn't it make the series *less* YA-friendly? (I have not been watching so that is a legitimate question.) I haven't seen the WoT TV show or the Shannara one for that matter, which is why I used phrasing like "sound like" and "I'm guessing". I probably shouldn't be stating my thoughts on any of this, but we have a fine tradition on the OF forums of giving opinions on subjects that we know nothing about it. 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Trainer Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 4 hours ago, RobynMM said: I feel like I'm not the only series fan that is totally fine with the changes made, i very much disagree that this is an in name only adaptation. Its a modernization in a different medium. Most of the changes are fairly easily explained by production limitations and cultural modernization. So much of the books would have made horrible tv, stone faced aes sedai and warders not reacting to things, endless internal monologue, 147 different character points of view (thats a true stat right there). Anyone want to talk about the actual changes and why? Agreed. It's not bad in any way. Sure it's an adaptation. But my main feedback is there's a LOT of fat to trim. The discussion above about the constant uncomfortable bondings, and other things. It's just not worth millions of dollars to generate it. Look at Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil was never introduced! Yet, everyone felt it was true to the books, etc. Game of thrones, and many other successful brands have done the same. That said, this is FAR better than Shannara. These writers are faced with thinning down the material to make money, without overspending. Until you get to Sanderson's books, it'll be required. Jordan was just long winded. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted December 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 To me this is not streamlining anything. They leave out crucial aspects of the original story that matter down the line. Rand carrying a Heron marked blade is a big deal. But not in the show. Mat's dagger and his connection to it were a big deal...but that was dealt with in one episode. Tom built a real connection with the boys...but again...who needs that. Moraine never makes it to Tar Valon in the books...whoops.... Rand meeting Elanye....we'll shove that somewhere else I guess. Sorry..they aren't streamlining anything..they are just blatantly taking a few points they want to hit, and then making up whatever filler around it. I would have liked something that resembled the story instead of near complete character changes. Egwene bragging about killing someone? please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobynMM Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 18 hours ago, Brother Glacius said: To me this is not streamlining anything. They leave out crucial aspects of the original story that matter down the line. Rand carrying a Heron marked blade is a big deal. But not in the show. Mat's dagger and his connection to it were a big deal...but that was dealt with in one episode. Tom built a real connection with the boys...but again...who needs that. Moraine never makes it to Tar Valon in the books...whoops.... Rand meeting Elanye....we'll shove that somewhere else I guess. Sorry..they aren't streamlining anything..they are just blatantly taking a few points they want to hit, and then making up whatever filler around it. I would have liked something that resembled the story instead of near complete character changes. Egwene bragging about killing someone? please. Heron blade - they got there this last episode, ha - i had a great explanation lined up for why they didn't but unnecessary now. Tar Valon - apparently because of how important Tar valon/ Aes Sedia structure/life is to a lot of the story they wanted to bring it in earlier. Also production issues prompted some of this change - Tar Valon is a static set that they will use throughout the series so they skipped caemlyn as not to have to build a set, just moved the important plot points to tar valon. Does it take out a lot of the flavor and character development of Eye of the world - yup, but it wasn't necessary for the storyline. I'm guessing Caemlyn will show up in the next season where we'll meet all the Andoran court people. Totally agree about Egwene, I feel like they're kinda lost with her character and how to progress it. I Don't like how far they're going with the Egwene Rand thing, takes away from the independent badass that Egwene is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 So I mentioned this conversation to my wife (who writes professionally and has connections in Hollywood). She mentioned issues with the process in Hollywood that actually explain why they would buy a property and use so little of it. It's about steps and the order they happen in. First, one writer gets the idea to produce a screenplay and sell the idea. Since people talk, this is the point at which he has to buy the idea since waiting until people are lined up on it means the price goes up. Then, because Hollywood is still largely a patriarchy who all need to pee on things to show their ownership/contribution the script passes through many hands and rewrites, each of which results in drift from the original property whether motivated by marketability, reducing production costs or just the need to put their own unique stamp on things. At the end of the process things have changed because marketing and producers have weighed in to say they don't want a CW-like YA property, they want something more adult and the producers have said they don't want to spend budget on this set or that special effect or what not... So in the end something that was intended as a faithful interpretation comes out as... What we end up seeing in this or _I, Robot_ or what have you. I dunno how bad the patriarchy still is but the process is probably still pretty accurate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blustorm Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Duckman said: I dunno how bad the patriarchy still is but the process is probably still pretty accurate. That's not a bad explanation for how WoT, Shannara, etc. ended up the way they did; but if that is indeed the case, it makes me wonder how the SW sequel trilogy ended up such a mess. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Trainer Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 On 12/18/2021 at 12:08 PM, RobynMM said: Totally agree about Egwene, I feel like they're kinda lost with her character and how to progress it. I Don't like how far they're going with the Egwene Rand thing, takes away from the independent badass that Egwene is. I don't want to nitpick here. But my take on Egwene, is, it's on purpose. **DANGEROUS SPOILER AVOIDANCE DETECTED** (sorry, no idea how to hide text) Just knowing Egwene's larger purpose. Makes sense to alienate her early on, and make her less important on a TV series. This is how writers try to include shock/awe later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 So I watched the first two episode with my wife. I haven't read the book in 20 years and my wife hasn't read the books in 30 years, but I do remembers parts.... Thoughts: 1: The filming location of Czech Republic is great and looks like the original book covers. 2: The acting is in general, subpar. Some of the actors seem very CW. 3: The CGI is 10 years behind its time..... sad. 4: So much less bickering, whining, and arrogance. Hurrah! 5: The characters are less likable than in the books, this is probably due to the acting. 6: GW was influenced by Jordan. The show seems to have take some of GW choices back. 7: The series ( and Jordan) is heavily influenced by LOTR. 8: The show is okay, but it is not epic or must watch TV. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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