Need ruling: Unit Frenzy = Rider Frenzy + Mount Frenzy?

[wisetiger7]

So here comes the Frenzy-mount question again:

 

Under Wild Riders - 

"SPECIAL RULES: Always Strikes First (Riders only), Devastating Charge (Riders only), Fast Cavalry, Fear, Forest Stalker, Frenzy." [WE Army Book pg. 47]

 

Under Frenzy - 

"To represent their fighting fury and lack of self preservation instincts, Frenzied troops have the Extra Attack and Immune to Psychology special rules." [bRB pg. 70]

 

Under Extra Attack - 

"A model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that bestows this special rule) increases his Attacks value by 1." [bRB pg. 69]

 

Under Cavalry and Special Rules - 

"Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider, and vice versa. There are, however, a few exceptions:

 

If the rider or the mount causes Fear or Terror, then the entire combined model is assumed to cause Fear/Terror.

 

If either the rider or the mount is subject to Stupidity, then the whole model is affected by the result of the test.

 

If either the rider or the mount are Immune to Psychology or immune to Fear, Terror or Panic, then so is the whole model.

 

If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack." [bRB pg. 82]

 

Under Warriors of Chaos Errata - 

"Page 24 - Army Special Rules, Mark of Khorne.

Add the following line to the second paragraph: 'In the case of models with the cavalry, monstrous cavalry, chariot or monster unit type, only the rider has the Extra Attack special rule.'" [WoC FAQ pg. 1]

 

Under Savage Orc Boar Boyz - 

"SPECIAL RULES: Animosity, Frenzy (Savage Orcs only), Choppas (Savage Orcs only), Size Matters, Thick-skinned, Tusker Charge (War Boars only), Warpaint." [O&G Army Book pg. 41]

 

So I know that this has been debated before. I believe RAW-wise, at least for Wild Riders, the Frenzy rule is applied to all elements of the unit. The reason for this is because within the same Special Rules entry, there are rules (ASF and Devastating Charge) that are specific to the riders only. This affirms that Frenzy is not specific to rider or mount, but applies to both. This is further backed up by the fact that the Savage Orc Boar Boyz entry specifically states Savage Orcs only, NOT the boars as well. If Frenzy for Wild Riders was only supposed to be on the Riders themselves, and not their mounts, they would also have included the "Riders only" caveat. Thus we must conclude that both the Riders and the Steeds of Kurnous have the Frenzy rule, and thus the Rider gets the Extra Attack special rule and the Steed gets the Extra Attack special rule.

 

I included the Mark of Khorne as well, for reference only to the fact that the WoC book and FAQ indicate that the Mark itself goes on the rider. However, I believe that the Banner of Rage gives Frenzy to the entire unit, mounts included.

 

Could we please get a ruling one way or the other so there is no disagreement come tourney weekend?

 

Thank you in advance!

[Veskit]

I'm in no way official, but I was under the impression that it's rider and mount as their are other elements that specifically state (rider only).

[MexicanNinja]

This came up in the game I had with raindog last night.  I thought only the rider had frenzy.  However, unless the rule in the unit entry specifially states rider only then the entire model gains the benefit from frenzy.  The two examples were:

 

1) Wild Riders

2) Cold Ones who were in a unit affected by witchbrew and then the frenzy spell from the cauldron

 

I know that we looked it up and ruled the both the riders and mounts gained frenzy for the above examples.

 

Unfortunately, for the savage orc boar boyz the frenzy in their unit entry specifially states savage orcs only and for the mark it states only the rider.  The army book rules override the bsb rules for those two specific cases.  As for the wild riders the entire model has frenzy so both the rider and mount gain the extra attack (because it doesn't state rider only).

[Raindog]

I am going to Rule that the Rider and Mount have frenzy since the book does not say "Riders only."

[Swan-of-War]

Well presented case there, wisetiger7

[wisetiger7]

Thanks Swan, and thanks Raindog. It's good to get that cleared up! 

[Myster2]

Anyone have the lizardmen book handy? I can't remember if the new book specified that just the carnisaur has frenzy once it deals a wound. 

[wisetiger7]

"Blood Frenzy: Once the Carnosaur (not his rider) has inflicted an unsaved Wound, it immediately becomes the subject to Frenzy. Furthermore, the carnosaur never loses its Frenzy."

[wisetiger7]

Might want to consider this:

 

Under Vampire FAQ - 

"Q: Do the Nightmares in a unit of Blood Knights benefit from the

Extra Attack special rule from the unit’s Frenzy? (p45)
A: No."

[MexicanNinja]

Unfortunately, that's due to the lack of intelligence when GW writes an FAQ.  That unit specifically got hosed by the FAQ.

[Drak]

disagree with your standpoint that "that unit got hosed". the FAQ should be interpreted to all like models, and not be taken as a "that specific" unit was addressed but it doesn't apply to my similar situation because they didn't say "xyz".

[MexicanNinja]

I understand your point, however it was an faq for a specific army and it specifically directed at blood knights. Someone could use what you just said for every faq and find a way that certain rules should effect other armies as well.

[thatdave]

I understand your point, however it was an faq for a specific army and it specifically directed at blood knights. Someone could use what you just said for every faq and find a way that certain rules should effect other armies as well.

 

Indeed.  Specific FAQs and Erratas are just that, and for a reason. Those reasons don't always make sense, but that's GW for you.

[wisetiger7]

While drak makes a valid point (and I can see it from his point of view), I have to agree with MexicanNinja. Rules that are specific for a certain army (including their FAQs) do not necessarily translate over to other armies, or general rules themselves. If this Frenzy rule for Blood Knights was intended for all cav units with Frenzy, then they would have included it in the BRB FAQ, not the army specific FAQ, and used a specific army as an example. For instance:

 

"Q: If a character is required to join a unit and all units are required to test to see if they are held in reserve or moved on from a board edge at the start of a turn, how is this resolved? (p97)

A: Before rolling for any units you must nominate which unit each character that is required to join a unit is going to be deployed with and then roll once to determine if they all turn up or all are delayed. For example a Skaven army with a Grey Seer on a Screaming Bell is playing against an Orc & Goblin army with Skarsnik. The Grey Seer would have to nominate which unit of Clanrats or Stormvermin he is joining before any rolls are made to see which units are delayed by Skarsnik." [bRB FAQ pg. 9]

 

In this example, we see a rule that encompasses all armies (in the BRB FAQ), yet makes reference to specific armies to explain it. Because the Frenzy reference is specific to the Vampire FAQ, we must assume that it is ONLY in reference to that specific unit of Blood Knights. The Ogre FAQ refers to the question of whether or not a Slaughtermaster can take magical armor. Though it was not initially intended, GW has issued the response that it is allowed, even though they ask that players not take advantage of it, as it was not their original intention. Using drak's point of view, then all wizards who can take mundane armor should not take magical armor as it is against GW's original intent. That is objectively false, and thus we must conclude that it is specific to Ogres only, not all wizards, and respectively, Frenzy to Blood Knights.

 

We also know that GW has the language to explain whether rider and mount or only the rider or only the mount get Frenzy (as evidenced by the Savage Orc Boar Boyz entry) since the release of the first 8th Ed Army Book, and so we can conclude that Frenzy (without the "riders/mount only" caveat) includes both rider and mount.