Jump to content

Thoughts on a 2K Scion heavy Astra Militarum list


Lord Hanaur

Recommended Posts

Total Roster Cost: 1994

 

   1 Company Command Squad

      4 Veteran+ Medi-Pack

      1 Company Commander(Kurov's Aquila)

      1 Chimera

 

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

1 Primaris Psyker

 

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

  

 

   1 Hydra

      1 Hydra

      1 Hydra

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      7 Veteran

      1 Veteran Sergeant

      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      7 Veteran

      1 Veteran Sergeant

      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Chimera

    

 1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

            1 Tempestor Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

    

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

     

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

      1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't own the Militarum Tempestus Codex anywho so I made this.  I own like 50 of these Storm Troopers and thought "hey...  I wonder how I'd build a Scion-centric force with these..."

 

EDIT:

 

There are 3 Deep Strikers, and 3 fast Vehicles, which will help us a lot in maelstrom OR normal missions with getting where we need to go. 

 

We have quite a bit of low STR, high AP Dakka and some High STR, mid range AP for the xenos.  Horde control comes in the form of volume of fire, battle cannons, and of course mobility when neither solution is really going to work.  Some fights just cant be won with STR 3 weaponry.  Sometimes you just have to fight or run.

 

Land Raiders/AV 14 can be handled with Meltas that deep Strike.  As this wont be til later in the game, it may well happen that the Land Raiders wont be a problem, Their occupants long since having disgorged.  However, certain other armies and their AV 13 and 14 is quite annoying, including Necrons, and Astra Militarum so either way, having the ability to do something about it is a good thing.

 

Anti-air and anti=skimmer duty is covered by 5 different units, which will really help us against the heldrakes of the world without slowing us down with an Aegis line or restriction our movements.  It also diffuses the anti-air and makes it more difficult to isolate or kill it.

 

The units are equipped for melee.  If it is a high toughness opponent, we can Smash, Force Axe and Power fist the enemy to even the odds and being Fearless, we have a very good chance of staying the course and finishing the job in subsequent turns.  With the Aquila nearby, we will have preferred Enemy, an enormous help to STR/Tough 3 models, both in melee and at range.

 

Against more mundane opponents we can, instead of Smashing, re-roll all our saves while in combat.  Either way the priest actually makes the units at least a credible threat that can hide in melee from return fire with fair frequency since many enemies will outclass us enough to stay entrenched for a phase.

 

Against Psyker Powers we will be bouncing them on 4's or 5's when cast on us.  That is a really great boost to their defense and the powers the Psykers can cast are kind of icing on the cake, but would be very useful.

 

This model count is uncomfortably small, but its the way these forces seem to go together.  The enormous points to put the Scions on the field in useable numbers is high and against some opponents, especially less mechanized ones, they will do well.  The real test is how they will fare against enormous volumes of fire.  I think that some thought is going to be necessary in order to overcome the numeric inferiority I feel will become inevitable. 

 

I also am thinking about the Culexis Assassin.  I'm not sure if there are points to get him, but he would eliminate the one matchup I feel all armies in 40K are ill equipped to handle without him.  As my own units don't rely heavily on actual PSYKER powers and the Way Hyms and orders are unaffected by the possibiliteis of the culexi Assassins ability, I'd love to justify it..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got the MT codex, have a similar number of INQ storm trooper models, and am working on getting it to the field (as allies). Basically, your scion command squad is an HQ choice by itself, the regular squads are each a troops slot. The codex has no elites or heavy, but can take valks and taurox primes as FA slots. They can also take taurox primes as dedicated transports. They also have access to commissars and lord comissars. No point changes and no one-per-army weapons. MT does have it's own orders and warlord traits.

 

I will note that in terms of exploits, the MT valks have no special restriction on bulky models like the AS ones do, so there is some potential with BB allies.

 

In terms of use as an army, the MT codex isn't really impressive enough to function by itself. Just too few unit options and far too elite. You might be able to get results at 500-1250pts, but anything after that is going to face lots of issues. I strongly recommend AS if you intend to field it as a scions army.

 

As for list suggestions, decide if your going with stock infantry, DS infantry, mech air, or mech land, as the scions excel if you focus them to a particular list style. Ally selection and army comp will vary greatly depending on which route you intend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does Militarum Tempestus not use ANY units outside the Scions, Taurox, Valkyries and Vendettas?  Is it unlike the Black Legion Codex in that way?

 

If so i am thinking that the way i did it makes as much or more sense unless theres Warlord traits and orders that are game breakingly useful for them?  Ill need to get a grasp on that i guess.

 

Well after thinking about it, it seems like i could just do a Dual CAD?  That would seemingly solve the problem and give me access to the cool Warlord Traits and Orders?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does Militarum Tempestus not use ANY units outside the Scions, Taurox, Valkyries and Vendettas?  Is it unlike the Black Legion Codex in that way?

 

If so i am thinking that the way i did it makes as much or more sense unless theres Warlord traits and orders that are game breakingly useful for them?  Ill need to get a grasp on that i guess.

 

Well after thinking about it, it seems like i could just do a Dual CAD?  That would seemingly solve the problem and give me access to the cool Warlord Traits and Orders?

It isn't a supplement, but a codex in and of itself. I think Codex: Stormtroopers would about sum it up. I think this codex has great ally potential, but I don't really think it's intended to run solo. I will add that if you are playing AS and have an open detachment, the scions in this codex are better just because they are scoring troops and their orders are tailored to hot-shot lasgun useage.

 

I can sum up the warlord traits and orders:

 

Warlord traits

 

1 fearless

2 Warlord has TL krak grenades at range, and tank hunters with MB and krak in melee.

3 Stubborn for him and MT within 12"

4 MT re-roll reserves and scatter only d6"

5 non-volley Hot shot weapons within 12" of the warlord gain 6" of max range if they don't move.

6 +1 leadership (makes tempestor prime leadership 10)

 

Orders

 

1 TL shooting

2 Prefered enemy shooting

3 (worst)Crusader USR

4 Fleet USR

5 (favorite) non-volley hot shot weapons may only fire once each, but gain sniper and pinning. Unit can't assault this turn.

6 adds rending to shooting against MCs or vehicles

 

5 and 6 are amazing, others are contextual. 5 means 4+ to wound anything with ap3 weapons. 6 means you can use plasma to deal with AV14. 5 has limited value with HQ, as they are limited to 5-man, so some coordination is needed to get that off.

 

I will note that having two different non-dedicated transports in a FA slot is pretty unusual a cheap army like this one. This means that if my marines want a valk instead of a raven, I can start the game in one. Sisters in particular, would find good use of MT allies, if only for the transports.

 

PS: Yeah, warlord choices suck for this army. Basically, a choice between a unit champion with no invulnerable and a commissar lord IC with rules/stats that make most of the warlord traits not do anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow.  The 5th and 6th ability are really awesome.  I assume the orders cant be given to vehicles?  Or can they?

 

Dual CAD then?  Taht would give me a bunch of objective secured, which would rock.  Here's my new thinking with this new info:

 
Seems that I would then ALSO want to rethink the Command Squad and chimera since their Aquilla is for Codex: Astra Militarum units only...  So if i drop the Command Squad, their Aquila and their Chimera... That's 200 points to spend on an HQ (and/or whatever)

 

So for the Astra Militarum HQ, we could switch that to Yarrick, leaving me with 55points.  And then because we took Yarrick, question becomes where do we put him and what do we do with the added points?  With the veterans?  If so, do we now need to get a Taurox or Chimera for them?  it seems like a wise thing to do and with the Veterans we dont require the same speed we have with the Storm Troopers, so a normal Taurox is fine?  Or do we go with Armor and protect them a little better?  hmm...

 

Can Militarum Tempestus Storm Troopers take melta bombs?  Doesnt seem to be an option in Astra militarum...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow.  The 5th and 6th ability are really awesome.  I assume the orders cant be given to vehicles?  Or can they?

 

Dual CAD then?  Taht would give me a bunch of objective secured, which would rock.  Here's my new thinking with this new info:

 

Seems that I would then ALSO want to rethink the Command Squad and chimera since their Aquilla is for Codex: Astra Militarum units only...  So if i drop the Command Squad, their Aquila and their Chimera... That's 200 points to spend on an HQ (and/or whatever)

 

So for the Astra Militarum HQ, we could switch that to Yarrick, leaving me with 55points.  And then because we took Yarrick, question becomes where do we put him and what do we do with the added points?  With the veterans?  If so, do we now need to get a Taurox or Chimera for them?  it seems like a wise thing to do and with the Veterans we dont require the same speed we have with the Storm Troopers, so a normal Taurox is fine?  Or do we go with Armor and protect them a little better?  hmm...

 

Can Militarum Tempestus Storm Troopers take melta bombs?  Doesnt seem to be an option in Astra militarum...

Options are the same between books, as I recall. Non-vehicle orders only. Melta bombs are actually only for the lord commissar, the other squads lack them, but do have krak stock.

 

I don't remember for sure, but I think the AS version has chimera access, which these guys lack, just taurox primes and valks, and only non-dedicated valks.

 

As for the transports, remember that the base scion is already paying for deep strike, so the transports really need to pull their weight if your going to include them. I'll add that our valks are the same bs3 as the AS ones, despite being the only unit in the MT book with bs3...

 

Scions pay SM costs for both ranged and melee weapons, which really drives down the value of things like power fists and doesn't seem to take into consideration that your downgrading their hot-shot weapons for the special weapons.

 

Even if you want a MT warlord, I strongly suggest allies, as they have no staying power in assault, at range, and lack the range to properly camp. The army is fine as a quick assault detachment, but they really don't have the staying power to be the entire army. Oh, and every non-character model in the army is leadership 7 so they fail pretty badly after they lose their sarge.

 

As for the taurox primes, they also have no staying power and a high base cost. They do have good range so they can function in a camping role, but it's very lacking for their point cost (SM predators are similar cost).

 

Entire army is like a suicide detachment. They'll be amazing for a turn, then fizzle out.

 

As for additional ideas, I've been kicking around the idea of a Land Raider or Storm Raven transport instead of using the MT vehicles. Hugely expensive and debate-ably viable, but it would allow them to be more durable while they wait for that one glorious turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume you mean AM (Astra Militarum) not AS (Astra Somethingorother)?

 

So I can't help but think really highly of the Militarum Tempestus Orders.  Too much awesome.

 

I thought more last night about the extra 200 points.  I could also do this:

 

-1 12pts Storm Trooper (Make room for Lord Commissar)

+ 80pts Lord Commissar (Power Maul)

+140pts Culexis Assassin

 

Better than Yarrick + Chimea for one Vet squad?  Worse?  The Culexis can show up, up field, and pave the way for the coming of our invasion when Psykers are near...

 

Heres where its at if I DONT put the Culexis in, with bold facing for the changes:

 

1994 Points

 

Commissar Yarrick

 

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker

 

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

  

 

   1 Hydra

      1 Hydra

      1 Hydra

 

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      9 Veteran (Shotguns, Heavy Flamer, 1 Flamer)

      1 Veteran Sergeant (Pistol+CCW)

      1 Chimera

 

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      7 Veteran

      1 Veteran Sergeant

      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)

 

     

1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

   

  1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Chimera

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

Kill Points:  23

Models:  76

Objective Secured: 11

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume you mean AM (Astra Militarum) not AS (Astra Somethingorother)?

 

So I can't help but think really highly of the Militarum Tempestus Orders.  Too much awesome.

 

I thought more last night about the extra 200 points.  I could also do this:

 

-1 12pts Storm Trooper (Make room for Lord Commissar)

+ 80pts Lord Commissar (Power Maul)

+140pts Culexis Assassin

 

Better than Yarrick + Chimea for one Vet squad?  Worse?  The Culexis can show up, up field, and pave the way for the coming of our invasion when Psykers are near...

 

Heres where its at if I DONT put the Culexis in, with bold facing for the changes:

Fail...yeah, AM. I think A.S.S. would be the best, especially with sisters being S.O.B.

 

The orders are awesome, no question.

 

Okay, list suggestions/critique:

 

One of the scion squads has a chimera, I assume it's a typo, as they can't take them.

 

Melta guns are silly on the Scion command squad. Basically, if you get rending on melta it doesn't add anything because with the lowest number for the second die, you still have 15 (6+1) and that's without rending added. For the scion command, I strongly suggest plasma, stock weapons (for order 5), volley hot shots, or, possibly, grenade launchers. Flamers could work too, if you can get them into position.

 

Granted, if just going with a suicide melta team, I suppose the melta aren't too silly, but I think it's wasted potential. Remember they can just order themselves twin-linked, so you don't even need 4 meltas for most vehicles. Should be able to get by with just 2.

 

Volley guns are bad on the troops squads. Remember that your stock trooper is replacing 18" rapid fire ap 3 weapons for this. Volley gun doesn't work with order 5 or warlord trait 5. I think the only place the volley gun has is either on the taurox prime or 4x in the command squad, but even then, they really limit your options as they really can't engage any targets that the base hot shot can't already engage.

 

I suggest plasma or melta on the basic troopers.

 

Not sure why you'd take power fists...it isn't that I don't see their value in-game, just that between the rapid fire and salvo weapons on your non-relentless unit, you really aren't likely to be getting much use out of it, while scions pay the full SM 25pts for one of those. You also have stock krak grenades, so it isn't like your adding higher strength to the unit.

 

If going with fists, I do suggest a larger squad. You'll need the full 10 bodies to ensure you get to swing with your t3 carapace unit. If not taking fists, I suggest 5-man unless trying to make use of order 5, in which case, back to 10 man. 5-man is a great suicide unit, 8 man implies you intend to keep them alive, just long enough to fail morale or get butchered in melee.

 

I assume the psykers and priests are attaching? Remember that this will prevent you from deep striking those guys.

 

Okay, so does look like you selected the land mech approach and you've got 4+ units. MT codex has a land mech formation called the "Ground Assault Formation" which is very much worth looking into if already fielding land mech. Requires commissar, command squad, 3 scions squads, and 4 taurox primes. Formation makes all units deploy or reserve as a single unit, so your rolling 1 reserve roll or deploying all of them, plus you can re-roll reserves. Infantry required to be in transports at the start of the game. Benefit, aside from reserves thing, is that when formation units disembark from their primes, they TL their weapons and gain pinning. This applies each time they disembark, so potential to happen multiple times during the game.

 

Quite honestly, I'd add some marines. You'd add staying power for a unit or two, which would greatly help with objectives. Adding a dedicate melee unit would be very helpful, even if only to give the opponent a unit to direct their dedicated melee unit at - your fist squads will be butchered in short order if they get actual melee units engaging them.

 

Oh, and I'd like to post a model count, in case you don't understand the issues I'm seeing:

 

9 vehicles, none of which have side AV greater than 10 or front AV greater than 12. For this list, might try adding some battle cannon vengeance batteries, just to distract the opponent from your lighter vehicles for turn 1.

 

68 t3 infantry. 68 is a good number for a marine army at 2k. It would be fine if this included some durable units to draw fire, like marines or an imperial knight, but this army has tabled written all over - you are an awesome player, so it may work anyway, but it won't be the list.

 

I am being a bit negative. If you can get it to work, awesome. I think the list will have trouble as your suggesting fielding it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hey I asked for advice, and i got it!  I'll look into all that.  Remember, i dont have the codex so Im still kind of mulling this all over i nmy mind and trying to get exactly the kind of input you're giving.  I may not use it all because, as you say, there are some tactical considerations that i think you're over looking here, but some of this is solid.

 

the suggestion on PLasma in particular looks like it makes sense, now that you've spelled that out for me.  My hesitation is, I cant give the normal units orders if I use them on myself.  So the reaon the melta was in the list instead of Plasma is that I want to be able to be effective while also making the other units effective.  Obviously thats easier to do with more orders but I am only going to be able to give two as it is by all appearances.  Still the plasma thing does give me something to think about...

 

The Militarum Tempestuis squads can take Chimeras in the Astra Militarum book and again, i wrote this without benefit of looking at the Militarum Tempestus book.  So you're saying no Chimeras in that book.  thank you for letting me know.  i will change that.  That'll put me over by 9 points with a Taurox Prime but more fire power.  I'll figure it out.

 

I want to win some combats.  There just ARE units that will not be harmed by normal Power Weapons nor all the ap 3 in the world.  so the units will feature, on the charge the following attacks (with re-rolls to hit first round of combat if I use that War Hym):

4 STR 4 Force Power Axe

4 STR 3 AP 2 (If i use that War Hym) 

3 STR 6 AP 2 Power Fist attacks

Some other dudes

 

That's REALLY respectable melee ability, especially against a unit that just got its butt shot off, am I right?  Enough to dissudae a charge?  Perhaps enough sometimes and certainly it will help when I go charging in to grenade a tank to death (because all of them can actually hurt it, I get more attacks).

 

the thing is, when i strike it has to be DECISIVE because we're not built, truly, fo the long haul so we HAVE to hit hard when we go in.  Now Im not saying that I wouldnt reconsider the Power fists.  I'm just saying, thats why they are there.  I dont like getting in fights and costing the enemy basically NOTHING for wiping me.  The enemy needs to pay a cost for every attack they make on me and the Power fists also force the question of whether they even WANT to charge and if they arent making hard choices im in a worse position at all times.  thats vague and sort of fluffy sounding but in games youwill see people time and again evaluating, after losing 5 or 6 Marines, whether they have the juice orthe willpower to go in swinging.  They will often consider the "free movement" it might give me.  They might back away and just shoot, giving me a chance at survival vs. the alternative, which is 1)  THEY will get free movement 2)getting wiped and 3) not doing a thing to them when they do it.  so that was my reason for having them in there.

 

Yes Psykers and Priests are atatching and thus 8 man squads.

 

The Deep Striking unit of 8 was a points consideration, not a symmetrical one.  I agree with making it ten man if the points allow, though I'm down 9 points and another $50 at this stage.  Dang it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to win some combats.  There just ARE units that will not be harmed by normal Power Weapons nor all the ap 3 in the world.  so the units will feature, on the charge the following attacks (with re-rolls to hit first round of combat if I use that War Hym):

4 STR 4 Force Power Axe

4 STR 5 AP 2 Power Mauls (If i use that War Hym) or just 4 STR 5 AP 4 Power mauls

3 STR 6 AP 2 Power Fist attacks

Some other dudes

 

That's REALLY respectable melee ability, especially against a unit that just got its butt shot off, am I right?  Enough to dissudae a charge?  Perhaps enough sometimes and certainly it will help when I go charging in to grenade a tank to death (because all of them can actually hurt it, I get more attacks).

Issue is initiative 3. The I3 takes away all threat of this unit from a marine standpoint. The other attacks are fine, but if I'm a marine unit, of comparable point cost mind you, I can afford a few deaths in the process of assaulting this unit.

 

Here: Math..

 

Basic non-chapter tactical squad, 10-man. stock weapons, BP+CCW non-vet sarge. 140pts

Stock Scions Squad, 10-man. stock weapons including stock CCW+hot laspistol sarge. 130pts

 

Let's say tactical squad shoots pistols, then assaults.

shooting phase: 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.22 deaths. Scions have 8 left.

Assault Phase overwatch: assuming sarge survived you have 15 shots, 2.5 hits, .83 wounded, no saves. Tactical squad has 9 left.

Tactical squad at initiative 4: 19 attacks, 12.66 hits, 8.44 wounds, 4.22 dead. Scions have 4 left.

Scions at initiative 3: assuming a live sarge you have 6 attacks, 3 hit, 1 wounds, .33 unsaved wounds. tactical squad wins assault by 3-4.

Morale check, assuming sarge survives for scions, looking at leadership 8 (9 if within 18" of command squad due to clarion vox net), subtracted by the loss, so testing on leadership 4-6. Marines can catch them if they fail by rolling higher with a +1 modifier due to being 1 high initiative. I could keep going, but I've made my point.

 

Yeah, your additional few characters would add a bunch to such a unit, but as long as you increase the points beyond those two similar cost units, you may as well replace the tactical squad with a more assault oriented squad or upgrade them with better weapons. A simple heavy flamer or whirlwind shot would annihilate this unit of scions.

 

Anyway, point isn't to belittle. I strongly think that their value is in their shooting ability, with winning assaults being a pleasant surprise, but not something I plan for. I would include allies for assault roles. Marines being the ideal allies, as you could get pods with locator beacons to guide the scions to a turn 2 target.

 

Taurox primes can take that augur array, if you want, but it's hugely expensive on a much lighter vehicle when compared to SM pods.

 

Also some good synergy potential with DA darkshrouds and smoking camo netting taurox prime rushes (5+ for smokes, 4+ for netting, 3+ for stealth via the darkshroud) - this would be spendy because those primes have to pay for both smokes and netting, but you could certainly advance without actual cover via that route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dual of the Novelists.

Are we thinking too hard?

 

Paxmiles:  Your math assumes a full unit which wont probably be the case.  It is much more likely that we are the ones dropping the boom before they have to decide on the charge.  So while a FULL unit of Marines might be fine against us, a unit with four left wont be.  If I re-roll saves for the unit, I am probably going to be okay.  Remember the Priests let me re-roll saves.  also, the challenge can be with an invul save.  Also, multi wound models can help.  So some things to think about there.

 

Your point on whirl winds and similar weapons is well taken and anything that ignores cover at ap 4 or better would be priorities for the Scion command and or Hydras/Veterans.  And there is no world in which you don't take wounds.  I am always going to have to TIME my attack.  THAT seems like the big trick,  WHEN I attack matters.

 

going second, and even null deploying might be the way to go?  hmm...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are we thinking too hard?

 

Paxmiles:  Your math assumes a full unit which wont probably be the case.  It is much more likely that we are the ones dropping the boom before they have to decide on the charge.  So while a FULL unit of Marines might be fine against us, a unit with four left wont be.  If I re-roll saves for the unit, I am probably going to be okay.  Remember the Priests let me re-roll saves.  also, the challenge can be with an invul save.  Also, multi wound models can help.  So some things to think about there.

 

Your point on whirl winds and similar weapons is well taken and anything that ignores cover at ap 4 or better would be priorities for the Scion command and or Hydras/Veterans.  And there is no world in which you don't take wounds.  I am always going to have to TIME my attack.  THAT seems like the big trick,  WHEN I attack matters.

 

going second, and even null deploying might be the way to go?  hmm...

In 40k, thinking too hard? Doubtful. I think he's referencing that we're both long winded, at least in posts.

 

Math was just to point out point costs and relative profiles. Lots of complication could be added, but I think you got my points. I agree that the full marines standing in front of the full scions was unrealistic for assaults - it was more to point out the high cost of the scions despite lacking innate melee durability.

 

I actually didn't purchase the AM codex. I mostly own storm trooper models, so the MT codex was the only one I got. I've read the current AM codex, but I really don't know everything about. I didn't recall what the priests do beyond re-rolls to hit when assaulting (which has probably changed).

 

Can we null deploy in this edition? The MT don't arrive until turn 2+. Partial deployment with an army that fragile would be a disaster. I think the formation all arriving at once would be the way to go, but I'd still make that detachment as cheap as possible and then field a more durable force to start on the table.

 

Hmm...can you add a small tank company to the AM allies? Seems like a few russes, especially long range russes, would have the durability to weather a turn while the MT decide if they want to arrive. Turn 1 DS forces would still be an issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Null deployment is allowed (no restrictions on how many units can be in reserves) however the rule where you lose at the end of a turn if you have no models on the table still exists.

 

Marine allies with pods are the way to go for null deployment. Nemesis strike force grey knights could work too.

 

Edit:fixed auto correct fails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Null deployment is allowed (no restrictions on how many units can be in reserves) however the rule where you lose at the end of a turn off you have no models on the table still exists.

 

Marine allies with pods are the way to go for null deployment. Nemesis strike force hey knights could work too.

Interesting.

 

I will note that interceptor weapons took a huge hit when the 7th ed skyfire+interceptor means snapping at DSing ground targets. Doesn't do much with TAU interceptors, but those fortifications got hit pretty bad. Really doesn't make much fluffy sense with pods and jump infantry DS, but I see the logic with teleporting terminators and outflanking units.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is something to read up on Null Deployment if interested:  Link

 

Okay I had my first game tonight.  Enemy came loaded for bear

 

2 Annihilation Barges, Doomsday Ark, Wraiths, C'Tan Shard, two Ghost Arks carrying Warriors and Haywire Crypteks, plus Zhandrek, a Warscythe Lord and another Lord were in one.  Night Scythe and a couple more Warrior Squads.  Armor everywhere and LOTS of Hull Points.  Necrons get 4 Hull Point Arks to go with shielding!     Daunting amount of fortitude.

 

We played the Contact Lost Mission.  He got to start with a bonus objective because of his Warlord Trait and he went first.  I was unaware (I cant tell you WHY) that you dont have to choose to go first or second until after both people have deployed.  That caught me off guard but knowing that he'd PROBABLY go first, i deployed accordingly and braced for impact.  I was not disappointed.  Two of the Taurox primes went up in a ploom the first round and actually were finished off by mundane Warrior shots.  I weathered the storm well though, no one pinned down or anything. 

 

The storm of fire that followed was pretty cool.  i managed to charge and kill his Arks and the slugfest began.  Much of the game was filled with frustration at trying to get through so much armor.  The 12 shots from the Hydra Battery didnt break a vehicle completely til turn 3 and by then, I only had one left!  nonetheless they had done some work and in turn 4 It got two glances on the Night Scythe, again not killing it.  So even though I was hitting and even got the ifnored cover power from the Psyker, like I was hoping, I just could not break the armor.

 

Yarrick missed his charge on an annihilation barge and his unit was abused for it when the barge hit and killed 9 Guardsman.... on 4 snap shots.  oi vay.  I missed another charge on the Deathmarks that cost me a Psykers life later. 

 

at th end of the game I was down by two and the board was littered with bodies.  His necron Lords were all down and the game came down to whether or not my lone Psyker that had been assigned to the Hydra battery could make a 6" run to the Objective outpost 6.  I got two points to tie the game at the end, but had impossile objectives more or less so it was down to Sparky.  He rolled up his sleeves and dashed as hard and fast as he had ever dashed before.  But alas after much running he fell exhausted.  he just couldnt reach it and we ended with a tie. 

 

Still, I was EXTREMELY pleased with how the plan worked out.  We got pretty much none of the powers we wanted.  Two of the Psykers got Scriers Gaze and Foreboding for the love of Pete!  I mean it actually came in handy once I guess.  so It wasnt NOTHING but...

 

Observations: 

1.  The Storm Troopers can absolutely fight in melee with the Axe, Fist and AP 2 attacks.  The C'Tan Shard couldnt break us and was hard pressed to even hurt the unit it got caught up with.  His big STR 3 explosion that goes off every round was the only real damage he caused for two phases. The Priest in a challenge with it, re-rolling invul saves?  Awesome.  It gave the Power fist a chance to whittle it.  In the end the C'tan was just hotter at its saves than I was (I was hitting that guy and wounding him every round, but he just kept saving).  2.  The Necron Lords had to get up twice before I finally buried them but the combination worked here too.  Milling through his Look Out Sirs on his warriors made it easier to win combats actually and we ran them down.

 

2.  Taurox Prime speed was pivotally important.  he knocked out two right away but the other two did a pretty goodly amount of damage before he killed them late game.  Those side guns are real cool.  The battle Cannons were pretty okay too.  i mean I was a little unlucky on scatters (a lot unlucky really) but they were still ganking guys.  Id drop it on four and I'd hit like one.  but wounding on 2's was cool and It ended up running a unit off the board. 

 

3.  i REALLY liked those orders and REALLY think I need to know what the Militarum Tempestus book says about Command Teams.  Can I just have the TWO?  Is that how it works?  or can you get more command Squads.  I ran out of the ability to give orders.  I was scattered too far apart and had the command groups dropping in.  I can see a real value to a dedicated orders team in the backfield to start the game and to follow for as long as they can, the units doing the damage. 

 

4.  I moved around a LOT because it was a Maelstrom Mission and so often did not get to fire the Volley guns at their maximum usefulness, but on overwatch it was great and had an impact.  It was especially nice when I fired at full BS.  That was pretty cool.  Nonetheless, I can see some value to looking into Plasma there or maybe on the unit thats meant to drop.  It also makes my collection easier since I actually OWN Plasma!  I'm not jazzed to lose guys to Gets hot rule, but if i am prescienced, it may be okay to make that change if the points work out.  In some missions i wont be running nearly as hard and that volume will be really nice against horde type lists with a Volleygun on the defensive.  Hose them coming and going.  I think I should play against a less eltie, more numerous foe and see how I feel about it then.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is something to read up on Null Deployment if interested:  Link

 

Okay I had my first game tonight.  Enemy came loaded for bear

 

2 Annihilation Barges, Doomsday Ark, Wraiths, C'Tan Shard, two Ghost Arks carrying Warriors and Haywire Crypteks, plus Zhandrek, a Warscythe Lord and another Lord were in one.  Night Scythe and a couple more Warrior Squads.  Armor everywhere and LOTS of Hull Points.  Necrons get 4 Hull Point Arks to go with shielding!     Daunting amount of fortitude.

 

We played the Contact Lost Mission.  He got to start with a bonus objective because of his Warlord Trait and he went first.  I was unaware (I cant tell you WHY) that you dont have to choose to go first or second until after both people have deployed.  That caught me off guard but knowing that he'd PROBABLY go first, i deployed accordingly and braced for impact.  I was not disappointed.  Two of the Taurox primes went up in a ploom the first round and actually were finished off by mundane Warrior shots.  I weathered the storm well though, no one pinned down or anything. 

 

The storm of fire that followed was pretty cool.  i managed to charge and kill his Arks and the slugfest began.  Much of the game was filled with frustration at trying to get through so much armor.  The 12 shots from the Hydra Battery didnt break a vehicle completely til turn 3 and by then, I only had one left!  nonetheless they had done some work and in turn 4 It got two glances on the Night Scythe, again not killing it.  So even though I was hitting and even got the ifnored cover power from the Psyker, like I was hoping, I just could not break the armor.

 

Yarrick missed his charge on an annihilation barge and his unit was abused for it when the barge hit and killed 9 Guardsman.... on 4 snap shots.  oi vay.  I missed another charge on the Deathmarks that cost me a Psykers life later. 

 

at th end of the game I was down by two and the board was littered with bodies.  His necron Lords were all down and the game came down to whether or not my lone Psyker that had been assigned to the Hydra battery could make a 6" run to the Objective outpost 6.  I got two points to tie the game at the end, but had impossile objectives more or less so it was down to Sparky.  He rolled up his sleeves and dashed as hard and fast as he had ever dashed before.  But alas after much running he fell exhausted.  he just couldnt reach it and we ended with a tie. 

 

Still, I was EXTREMELY pleased with how the plan worked out.  We got pretty much none of the powers we wanted.  Two of the Psykers got Scriers Gaze and Foreboding for the love of Pete!  I mean it actually came in handy once I guess.  so It wasnt NOTHING but...

 

Observations:

1.  The Storm Troopers can absolutely fight in melee with the Axe, Fist and AP 2 attacks.  The C'Tan Shard couldnt break us and was hard pressed to even hurt the unit it got caught up with.  His big STR 3 explosion that goes off every round was the only real damage he caused for two phases. The Priest in a challenge with it, re-rolling invul saves?  Awesome.  It gave the Power fist a chance to whittle it.  In the end the C'tan was just hotter at its saves than I was (I was hitting that guy and wounding him every round, but he just kept saving).  2.  The Necron Lords had to get up twice before I finally buried them but the combination worked here too.  Milling through his Look Out Sirs on his warriors made it easier to win combats actually and we ran them down.

 

2.  Taurox Prime speed was pivotally important.  he knocked out two right away but the other two did a pretty goodly amount of damage before he killed them late game.  Those side guns are real cool.  The battle Cannons were pretty okay too.  i mean I was a little unlucky on scatters (a lot unlucky really) but they were still ganking guys.  Id drop it on four and I'd hit like one.  but wounding on 2's was cool and It ended up running a unit off the board. 

 

3.  i REALLY liked those orders and REALLY think I need to know what the Militarum Tempestus book says about Command Teams.  Can I just have the TWO?  Is that how it works?  or can you get more command Squads.  I ran out of the ability to give orders.  I was scattered too far apart and had the command groups dropping in.  I can see a real value to a dedicated orders team in the backfield to start the game and to follow for as long as they can, the units doing the damage. 

 

4.  I moved around a LOT because it was a Maelstrom Mission and so often did not get to fire the Volley guns at their maximum usefulness, but on overwatch it was great and had an impact.  It was especially nice when I fired at full BS.  That was pretty cool.  Nonetheless, I can see some value to looking into Plasma there or maybe on the unit thats meant to drop.  It also makes my collection easier since I actually OWN Plasma!  I'm not jazzed to lose guys to Gets hot rule, but if i am prescienced, it may be okay to make that change if the points work out.  In some missions i wont be running nearly as hard and that volume will be really nice against horde type lists with a Volleygun on the defensive.  Hose them coming and going.  I think I should play against a less eltie, more numerous foe and see how I feel about it then.  

1 Interesting. Necrons are a pretty ideal match-up for scions, having low initiative and mostly preferring to engage the scions at close-mid range. I'm curious if wraith, scarab or monolith heavy 'crons would have been a tougher challenge.

 

2 You were using the taurox battle cannons, right? Not the leman russ battle cannons? I doubt you'd make the mistake, but I've certainly talked to people that seemed to think they got S8 large blasts on their 80pt buggy. It's a fun little vehicle in game and a great kit to assemble and paint.

 

3 Yeah, multiple command teams is okay. Each is a 5-man HQ slot. So if you want lots, you need to field lots of CADs - yeah, MT use the CAD or Allied detachment rules with no modifications, they don't have their own detachment like imperial knights or INQ. In terms of unit types, command and commy are HQ, scions are troops and non-dedicated primes or valks are fast. They totally lack elites and heavy units, but as those aren't required for the CAD, they meet all requirements. Yeah, this is another reason to whittle down your squads so you can field more CADs.

 

4 Plasma is best for a mobile unit. For stationary, I agree that the command squad with volleys has much potential.

 

I've been tinkering with the idea of a grenade launcher command squad, just due to how much cheaper it is and how the grenade launcher would be with some of those orders (like rending krak GL shots, for basically an assault cannon).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rending grenade launchers? Ha! Thats awesome.

But only against vehicles and MCs, and only with orders. So, doesn't work against infantry units.

 

That said, I've been looking at the wording on the order, seems like it adds rending for the entire shooting attack, so I think the rending would apply to blasts and templates that hit targets other than the vehicle or MC, provided that the vehicle/MC was the intended target.

 

But, yeah, I think it would be awesome on a command squad. Technically, its 105pts for basically a single assault cannon that deep strikes, so it's sort of overpriced. You have to replace the hot shots, so that order to grant sniper and pinning isn't going to apply. Still, it would mean you could assault after firing, assuming you don't disembark or DS. Not sure, but certainly some potential there.

 

I will note that on that plasma command squad, you only need to add the rending order on the turn where you shoot at AV13-14 targets. The rest of the time, going with either the prefered enemy or TL order would be better. If shooing at AV14, I do think get's hot is an acceptable risk for the increased range, points and shots of the plasma guns.

 

TL plasma command squads are probably pretty viable AA options too, just DS within 12"...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...