Thoughts on a 2K Scion heavy Astra Militarum list

[Guest]

Ill tinker some more but the force looked good last night. So just to be clear, I basically only get two command squads unless i do yet another CAD, correct?

Yeah, each command squad is an HQ, so with a MT CAD, you'd have 1 mandatory HQ and one optional HQ slot. You'd need 2 mandatory troops (scions). You could also do allied detachment with 1 HQ (max) and 1-2 troops.

 

For the record, GG has this codex in stock.

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah, each command squad is an HQ, so with a MT CAD, you'd have 1 mandatory HQ and one optional HQ slot. You'd need 2 mandatory troops (scions). You could also do allied detachment with 1 HQ (max) and 1-2 troops.

 

For the record, GG has this codex in stock.

kay so since I have four troops, i could actually add two more command Squads with another CAD.  I'd have three CAD's but that's the weay the game is built now so i guess it's no big deal.  Funny that I would seek out another CAD just to get a couple tiny little HQ's but those orders were mui importante.

[Guest]

kay so since I have four troops, i could actually add two more command Squads with another CAD.  I'd have three CAD's but that's the weay the game is built now so i guess it's no big deal.  Funny that I would seek out another CAD just to get a couple tiny little HQ's but those orders were mui importante.

Events seem to be steering towards a 2-3 detachement max, but I agree otherwise.

 

I will note that if you have 2+ CADs, you can include 2+ Fortifications or LoWs. Not really suggesting anything broken, but you could, potentially, include a Imperial Bunker, or similar fortification, for your forces, instead of taking a dedicated transport. This approach would be good if going with the Hot Shot Volley guns.

[Lord Hanaur]

Events seem to be steering towards a 2-3 detachement max, but I agree otherwise.

 

I will note that if you have 2+ CADs, you can include 2+ Fortifications or LoWs. Not really suggesting anything broken, but you could, potentially, include a Imperial Bunker, or similar fortification, for your forces, instead of taking a dedicated transport. This approach would be good if going with the Hot Shot Volley guns.

Yeah the Bastion could be fun, though, would I really put Militarum Tempestus in it?  Probably not.  I'd probably trade out the veterans Chimera for it and stow Commassar Yarrick and the Skyfiring Missile Launcher in there.  That would be the way to go there I think.  The points are tight at this stage, so the Chimera is a possible expendable item, Yarrick can be replaced with a less expensive guy, or both can be done to get the Militarum Tempestus HQ's I covet.  Now that I type that, I kinda like the idea.  Hmm...  it makes sense.  Yarrick really isn't going to give a lot of orders to the two Veteran Squads.

 

Another thought I had while playing was to give the Taurox primes to the Scion Command Squads and drop in the other dudes in support of them.  That way I'd never run short of orders and could easily transfer the special Characters from one ot the other on the round they all drop.  The Taurox Primes themselvers would be then less important and making things in your list less important is always good, especially if its redundant.  With that model in mind, a Comms Relay seems like a worthwhile investment...  Not sure where those points would come from though.  A Hydra?

[Guest]

Yeah the Bastion could be fun, though, would I really put Militarum Tempestus in it?  Probably not.  I'd probably trade out the veterans Chimera for it and stow Commassar Yarrick and the Skyfiring Missile Launcher in there.  That would be the way to go there I think.  The points are tight at this stage, so the Chimera is a possible expendable item, Yarrick can be replaced with a less expensive guy, or both can be done to get the Militarum Tempestus HQ's I covet.  Now that I type that, I kinda like the idea.  Hmm...  it makes sense.  Yarrick really isn't going to give a lot of orders to the two Veteran Squads.

 

Another thought I had while playing was to give the Taurox primes to the Scion Command Squads and drop in the other dudes in support of them.  That way I'd never run short of orders and could easily transfer the special Characters from one ot the other on the round they all drop.  The Taurox Primes themselvers would be then less important and making things in your list less important is always good, especially if its redundant.  With that model in mind, a Comms Relay seems like a worthwhile investment...  Not sure where those points would come from though.  A Hydra?

Was thinking about those imperial bunkers, being 55pt buildings with AV14 on all sides. Only has the one facing fire point, but it's got battlements and you could deploy it near an objective for easy disembarking.

 

Orders don't work in the vehicles or buildings. No mobile command vehicle rule. They have to disembark to use the orders and can't issue them to other units in buildings/vehicles. This is the drawback to mech forces, or to using lots of buildings. They do work from/to the battlements.

 

I like hydras, if sticking with the mech land approach. I think the air approach is probably most viable for MT, especially if you take allied vendettas. I am debating the plasma command squad for AA...:

 

Plasma command squad. 4x plasma, 145pts. 4 shots at 24", 8 at 12". TL with order at leadership 9. Odds to fail the test are below 17% as per here: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm#.VAZF6BaHMmZ

4 shots TL bs 1, 1.21 hits, S7, so assuming AV11 flyer, 0.605 glances/pens.

Results double at 12", so 1.21 glances/pens. Ap2, so denial of armor on flying MCs and +1 damage table against vehicles

 

As opposed to a hydra team at similar cost:

8 TL bs3 shots, 6 hits, 3 glances/pens, no jink save.

 

Hydra is probably better for AA, but I'm still impressed with the TL plasma results.

[Lord Hanaur]

I\m opposed to Stronghold Assault and to Escalation, so I don't include those in my lists.  And yes, I know, They now made the "normal" fortifications in Stronghold only, but I think you know what I mean.

 

I wasn't suggesting giving orders from inside the vehicle.  Of course, I'd be getting out after my buddies show up.

 

If the purpose of the Vendetta IS anti-air, i think the points just wont make themselves available, even if i drop the Hydras, and in games against Inteceptor fire it could be rough, rougher than say, another Missile team which I can add for 25 points to an already existing squad!  As it is I will have to lose a Hydra to make room for the added MT command Squad I need (not having orders sucked later in the game, and having those orders changes the entire army!)  I do love Vendettas though.   But 25 points is a lot cheaper if I REALLY wanted a little more anti air.

 

I don't want plasma vets occupying their time with aircraft.  If its come to that, Im already not winning.  hehehe.  Just saying.

 

Alrighty so here is the new (and improved?) version.

 

Total Roster Cost: 1999

 

   Commissar Yarrick

 

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker

 

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

  

 

   1 Hydra

   1 Hydra

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      9 Veteran (Shotguns, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Flamer)

      1 Veteran Sergeant (Pistol+CCW)

 

 

   1 Veteran Squad

      7 Veteran

      1 Veteran Sergeant

      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)

 

      1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

      1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Flamers x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

 

  1 Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltagun x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

1 Militarum Tempestus Scion Squad

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

          1 Taurox Prime

 

Warlord traits

 1 Fearless

2 Warlord has TL krak grenades at range, and tank hunters with Melta Bombs/Krak in melee.

3 Stubborn for MT units within 12"

4 MT re-roll reserves; Scatter only d6".  Awesome.

5 non-volley Hot shot weapons within 12" of the warlord gain 6" of max range if they don't move.

6 +1 leadership (makes Tempestor prime leadership 10 and he has the Clarion Voxnet ability so an 18" bubble of his LD for Fear, Pinning and Morale checks.

 

 Orders (and this is why a third command squad is awesome)

1 TL shooting

2 Preferred Enemy shooting

3 Crusader USR (Makes charges you win pretty awesome)

4 Fleet USR

5 Non-volley hot shot weapons may only fire once each, but gain sniper and pinning (Lets you kill WraithKnights with our searingly bright flashlights!).  Unit can't assault this turn.

6 Adds rending to shooting against MCs or vehicles (Volley guns can kill light Transports, Plasma can kill Land Raiders.  Whuuuuut)

[Guest]

Looking forward to the next battle report.

[Lord Hanaur]

I'll be interested to see how that Flamer Squad works out.  I can see that an Ork horde is problematic for a force that relies on AP to do its fighting for it.  While the army does have a decent volume of shots its not as if 120 Orks couldn't shrug it off.  So by adding the command squad to bolster my orders and then by giving them Flamers I think the damage output in TOTAL will be better against Hordes.  The list is a bit light on true Anti-tank and that's where it hurts.  

 

I thought of maybe spending the 20 points in flamers on changing ONE unit of Meltas to Plasma.  That's on the table too.  I did lament somewhat the lack of plasma's at one point in my first game, thinking back.  Now given, the Command Squad engaged Necrons behind a wall so the Necrons weren't going to take as much damage as I'd have liked anyways but four extra shots could have made a diff there with such a high percentage chance of wounding and Necrons dont come back if you wipe the squad.

[Guest]

I'll be interested to see how that Flamer Squad works out.  I can see that an Ork horde is problematic for a force that relies on AP to do its fighting for it.  While the army does have a decent volume of shots its not as if 120 Orks couldn't shrug it off.  So by adding the command squad to bolster my orders and then by giving them Flamers I think the damage output in TOTAL will be better against Hordes.  The list is a bit light on true Anti-tank and that's where it hurts.  

 

I thought of maybe spending the 20 points in flamers on changing ONE unit of Meltas to Plasma.  That's on the table too.  I did lament somewhat the lack of plasma's at one point in my first game, thinking back.  Now given, the Command Squad engaged Necrons behind a wall so the Necrons weren't going to take as much damage as I'd have liked anyways but four extra shots could have made a diff there with such a high percentage chance of wounding and Necrons dont come back if you wipe the squad.

Big issue I've experienced with scions is riptides. Nothing quite like S8 ap2 large blast interceptor weapons...I could not get my plasma into range and be able to take those things down. It was a valiant effort.

[Lord Hanaur]

well and i mentioned earlier that i was considering putting the command squads in the Taurox's and dropping their teams in.  That might give us a shot at killing units  like that.  Interceptor on the Riptide still requires line of sight so where you drop will matter.  It's just an idea.

 

The riptides real weakness will be to the rending order I imagine, or to melee.  So on one hand, I worry about it but on the other, Riptides are expensive AND good and really SHOULD do damage for what you pay.  I don't think they will completely derail me though.  It will impact my tactics, and there's no denying that.

[Guest]

well and i mentioned earlier that i was considering putting the command squads in the Taurox's and dropping their teams in.  That might give us a shot at killing units  like that.  Interceptor on the Riptide still requires line of sight so where you drop will matter.  It's just an idea.

 

The riptides real weakness will be to the rending order I imagine, or to melee.  So on one hand, I worry about it but on the other, Riptides are expensive AND good and really SHOULD do damage for what you pay.  I don't think they will completely derail me though.  It will impact my tactics, and there's no denying that.

I don't think they should be a huge concern, but they are a challenge for scions. dropping out of LOS could work, but as you can't move after dropping, it does mean that you can't shoot them anyway.

 

I suppose, you could park an augur array taurox prime, DS with LOS being blocked by the prime so interceptor couldn't see them, then use flat out to move the prime out of LOS blocking position in the shooting phase, then shoot. Tough, as it means moving the taurox prime very close to the target on the previous turn and not being imobilized/exploded in the mean time.

[VonVilkee]

Not super close! Remeber you get to move all your units before the interceptor fires. So about 18" to 24" out. Still it is something that will work once then they will be hot to your tricks... Then again those ranges are tau kill zone ranges, nuts!

[Lord Hanaur]

We'll have to play against Tau now. Dun dun duuuuuuun.

[Lord Hanaur]

Another game in the books and more learned.  A friend who had the book made me realize a couple of things that i definitely wanted to take advantage of.  I also ran into another problem:  tournaments.  some are allowing 2 CAD's Some one.  Its kinda all over the map at this point.  So to maximize the legality at the maximum number of Tournies, I totally reshaped its organization: 

 

Total Roster Cost: 1999

Combined Arms Detachment

 

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltaguns x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Flamers x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

 

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor

 

         4 Tempestus Scion (1 Grenade Launchers)

         1 Tempestor

 

Allied Detachment

 

   Commissar Lord (Power Weapon)

 

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

   1 Primaris Psyker

 

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

   1 Ministorum Priest

  

2 Hydras

 

      7 Veteran

      1 Veteran Sergeant

      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)

      1 Chimera

 

 

Militarum Tempestus Ground Assault Formation:

 

         1 Comissar

 

         4 Tempestus Scion, + Meltaguns x4

         1 Tempestor Prime

         1 Taurox Prime

 

       

  7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

 

     

   7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

 

    

    7 Tempestus Scion (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)

         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)

         1 Taurox Prime

[Lord Hanaur]

Got to see the army in action again tonight.  As I said before, was looking to see if it could handle a horde army like Orks so we pitted it against, well...  Orks!

 

Kill Points Dawn of War.  Possibly the worst scenario for the army since it has so many Kill points. 

 

Observations:

 

1.  The Taurox Battle Cannon proved to be very useful for its range.  it allowed the army to move to the left flank effortlessly and keep firing on the enemy to make their jobs of moving through cover as difficult as possible, killing thge closest models which also put dents in their movement.  this ability to slide laterally and keep up the pressure was important in this game. 

 

2.  Never Deep Strike in No mans land when employing that strategy.  Lol.  because of the position of the vehicles, the wish to be in orders range and the terrain, there werent a great many good places to Deep Strike.  a Mishap and two bad locations later, it was clear that the Deep Striking Scions might not see tomorrow.  as it turned out in the end, orks dont hit that well in shooting and so they survived it long ENOUGH to mount a holding action, but lost a lot of damage output.  the only casualties of the game were three Scion squads actually.

 

3.  some praise needs to go to the Command Squads.  They killed a Blitzbomba butit was their orders that helped hold the line as well as it was held and without them, the odds would have been far too stilted against them.

 

4.  Yarrick proved to be very ineffectual in this form of the force since his only unit to give orders to was essentially ONE anti-air unit.  In this newer version of thearmy I posted, he may not be worth the added points over a normal Commissar Lord.  Getting back up after being knocked out of the fight is cool but usually it means the plan has failed and we are knee deep in bad news.  I'm really torn on this one honestly because Warlord IS such a bigdeal and the Scion Command Squads are after all, less survivable than he is and more prone to being put in harms way than a rearguard Veteran Squad.  The big Question is if I did use a Comissar Lord, what changes would i make?  Would they be MORE important?

 

Anywho it ended in a 5-4 Victory.  The Militarum Tempestus killed a unit of Gretchen, two Ork Trukks, a Blitzabomba and got First Blood.  the Orks killed three Militarum Tempestus Scion Squads, and got Line Breaker.

 

Epic moment of the game:  down and out, the orks needed a 10 inch charge to make it into the forest and attack the remnants of a Tempestus squad, as well as giving them lots of free movement and a launching pad for the next round.  Box Cars.  the orks made it, slammed into them and kllled them ferociously and the game ended.  But it was pretty cool.

[WestRider]

Yarrick can't be your Warlord in that list. It's one of the restrictions on Allied Detachments, the Warlord can never come from one.

[Lord Hanaur]

Hey that's a great point.  With this new way of organizing my army I kind of forgot all about that but you're right...

[Guest]

Hey that's a great point.  With this new way of organizing my army I kind of forgot all about that but you're right...

Sort of figured that you knew that...would have commented earlier.

[Lord Hanaur]

the last thing on my mind in this list was who the warlord WOULD be, more just about trying to get it down to one CAD instead of three like I had it before.  Just sort of shifting things around to see if they'd fit.  Now that I like the FORM its in, this information computes and made a seriously irritating decision quite easy to make.  Yarrick is out and we will hope the Lord Commissar in his place can hope to attain glory as great.

 

It also allowed me to RE-insert the Chimera for the Vets which, while it's not an enormous issue, it definitely adds some firepower at range that I lack.  Being able to nibble a bit and go for First Blood is always nice as is just a little bit of continuous fire to make melee threats slightly more manageable.

[Lord Hanaur]

So heres the slightly newest version:

Total Roster Cost: 1999

Combined Arms Detachment

        
 4 Tempestus Scion, + Hot Shot Volley Guns x4
         1 Tempestor Prime
       
  4 Tempestus Scion, + Flamers x4
         1 Tempestor Prime

         7 Tempestus Scion (2 Meltaguns)
         1 Tempestor
     
    4 Tempestus Scion (1 Grenade Launchers)
         1 Tempestor


Allied Detachment

Commissar Lord (Power Weapon)

   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
   1 Primaris Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
   1 Primaris Psyker

   1 Ministorum Priest
   1 Ministorum Priest
   1 Ministorum Priest

  2 Hydras


      7 Veteran
      1 Veteran Sergeant
      1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team(Missile Launcher + Flakk Missiles)
      1 Chimera



Militarum Tempestus Ground Assault Formation:

         1 Comissar

 

         4 Taurox Prime
      
   4 Tempestus Scion, (Hot Shot Volley Guns x4)
         1 Tempestor Prime


  7 Tempestus Scion (2 x Meltaguns)
         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)


   7 Tempestus Scion (2 x  meltaguns)
         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)


    7 Tempestus Scion (2 x meltaguns)
         1 Tempestor (Power Fist)
 

[Lord Hanaur]

Nuther victory. Key moments: rending the dread to death w flashlights. Not far behind: entire assault squad, turned to burnt toast by a Command Squad and two Taurox Primes. KARTHOOM!!!

 

Deep strikes were dicey and scarey. Want...Augury Array... so... bad...

 

Sadly, i think I have to break down and get the side mounted auto cannon. I NEED a touch more anti tank. I can actually pop the cans I need to but then lose a lot of anti personell utility. Rending works but its again putting me right in front of a vengeful enemy afterwords. So now that Scion Commands are doing the "venom" thing I think the autocannons might have to come out to play... i didnt want to but...