chapters of unknown origins and special characters.

[Guest]

Okay, Exorcists Space marines chapter tactics, as per FW, is that we pick any of the existing chapter tactics and use them....

 

Simple enough, though very much lacking in flavor.

 

How does this relate to special characters? In example, if I go with Imperial Fists chapter tactics and I take Pedro, can my Exorcists utilize his "oath of rynn" or does that special rule have no effect because his entry specifies a Crimson Fists detachment?

 

 

[pretre]

What's his exact text?

[Guest]

What's his exact text?

Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Pedro Kantor is your Warlord, all friendly models in Crimson Fists detachments have Prefered Enemy (Orks) special rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor recieve +1 attack whilst he lives. This bonus does not apply to Kantor and si not cumulative with the similar bonus from a Chapter Banner.

 

Hold the Line: If your army includes Pedro Kantor, friendly units of Crimson Fists sternguard Veterans are Scoring units.

 

 

It's notable that Crimson Fists is not the chapter tactics, but a specific chapter. They are chapter tactics (imperial fists).

 

FW chapter tactics can be [legally] found here:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf

 

I'll add, in the chapter tactics section, in bold letters:

 

Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of a specified chapter.

there is a note regrading successor chapters using chapter tactics of their parent, but there isn't any such note regarding use of special characters.

 

On subject, could an army field Lysander and Pedro in the same detachment? I can see it argued that while they share chapter tactics, each character is from a specific and different chapter, so cannot be in the same detachment.

[VonVilkee]

Hooray raw stuff with the chapter tactics. I have nothing useful to add as Pax has put the raw out there. Crimson fist chapter tactics don't exist so as they share imperial fists yes by raw they could be in the same detachment and you could just be like all these Marines are crimson fists...

[Guest]

Hooray raw stuff with the chapter tactics. I have nothing useful to add as Pax has put the raw out there. Crimson fist chapter tactics don't exist so as they share imperial fists yes by raw they could be in the same detachment and you could just be like all these Marines are crimson fists...

the concern is that while they may share the chapter tactics of their parent, they are two specific chapters. Here's that quote again with underlines for emphasis:

 

Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of a specified chapter.

.

For the codex SM, the successor chapter rules are:

 

If a detachment is from a successor chapter, you must adopt the chapter tactics of the first founding chapter from which that successor descends. For example, a detachment of storm lords uses the chapter tactics of the white scars, and a detachment of crimson fists uses the chapter tactics of the imperial fists.

Note how their example doesn't change the chapter that the detachment is, they just specify use of the same chapter tactics.

 

This matters because Pedro's rules are specific to detachments of the Crimson Fists, not for units with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists).

 

Anyway, that is the argument I see. I'm not sure what is intended.

 

There is a note in the allies section of the chapter tactics rules that permits fielding of multiple chapters within the same detachment, provided they share chapter tactics. That said, I remain unclear how this relates to the selection of special characters, and if it would mean that all models in the detachment are considered of multiple chapters, or if they remain considered part of the chapter they are painted as.

 

There is actually a WYSIWYG requirement for representing chapters with distinctive painting in that SM codex, though I've never seen this one enforced. I'm not sure if this is meant to be the distinguisher between units within a detachment of different chapters, but the same chapter tactics.

[pretre]

Yeah, if say that his rules wouldn't work.

[VonVilkee]

Both the characters could be there but what makes a crimson fists crimson fist is the question of the day.

 

I just avoid the question altogether, cuz for me if I'm bending rules and doing something kinda janky, I figured best not do it so i don't. Sportsmanship before the game and all that,along with the fact that abuses like that tend to be eliminated in future books and I like to future proof my armies as much as possible.

[Guest]

Both the characters could be there but what makes a crimson fists crimson fist is the question of the day.

 

I just avoid the question altogether, cuz for me if I'm bending rules and doing something kinda janky, I figured best not do it so i don't. Sportsmanship before the game and all that,along with the fact that abuses like that tend to be eliminated in future books and I like to future proof my armies as much as possible.

The whole issue comes about because I'm running Exorcists SM, which is a legit chapter in C:SM, but one with unknown founding. C:SM says that if you don't know your parent chapter, pick a set of chapter tactics. FW echos this.

 

Now I'm running an Exorcists detachment. If I select chapter tactics (imperial fists) and include Pedro, can I benefit from the listed abilities? Can I include Pedro at all? Can I include Lysander?

[PourSpelur]

Not sure.

I've always found rules lawyering kinda like a fart, if you have to push too hard it's probably Crap.

;)

[Guest]

Not sure.

I've always found rules lawyering kinda like a fart, if you have to push too hard it's probably Crap.

;)

Yeah, might be another instance of, "ignore RAW, do what everyone else is doing." 40k has this a lot.

[VonVilkee]

I didn't realize the shades on this one tho, while I was reading I assumed chapter tactics was the keyword and read chapter interchangeably with the chapter tactics. Prolly a reading fail on my part but if so by the raw you've put down all those Pedro clones don't get the preferred enemy bit!

 

Good catch but the community investment of building an army to use Pedro but not his colors does make this one of those just let them. Color typically doesn't matter.

[PourSpelur]

Just bustin yer balls a bit;)

No idea on if/could/should you or RAW/RAI. If you walked up to play me and started a long discourse about how he can or can't I honestly wouldn't care. You want Pedro and Exorcist stuff? Cool, I just want to roll dice and pew-pew your doodz. If it's crazy overpowered, we'll talk about it for our next game. I'm more interested in the cool conversion.

[Guest]

Just bustin yer balls a bit;)

No idea on if/could/should you or RAW/RAI. If you walked up to play me and started a long discourse about how he can or can't I honestly wouldn't care. You want Pedro and Exorcist stuff? Cool, I just want to roll dice and pew-pew your doodz. If it's crazy overpowered, we'll talk about it for our next game. I'm more interested in the cool conversion.

I get that. Some players/events care more about RAW/RAI than others. The big concern is when you bother to make an awesome conversion/paint job, only to be informed later that the model isn't allowed in normal play...

[pretre]

In casual play, you can get away with anything. My opinion is that events/organized play, most organizers would say no.

[PourSpelur]

I get that. I really want to make an army of 30 grot tanks and 15 skorcha buggies but I'm a little leery of facing someone new and saying "Hey, wanna face my Unbound and Forge World list?!?".

;)

[pretre]

That's not the kind of army you'd play against a stranger, imo.

[Guest]

In casual play, you can get away with anything. My opinion is that events/organized play, most organizers would say no.

Alright, thanks. I think that's the answer I'll go with.

 

I will note, that in casual play, you can usually get away with anything the first time, but regular casual play may not go so well if you keep bringing broken/cheese/cheaty armies.

 

Classic example is a player that conveniently forgets key rules that hinder his/her army, or forgets the order things happen in a sequence that is advantageous to his army. For the first friendly game, you can easily get away with this, even if it's bad form. Future games become increasingly less friendly.

 

I don't do this, but I've certainly played/observed players that seem to (no names, not starting a slander thread). It can certainly push the limits of friendly play.

[Guest]

I get that. I really want to make an army of 30 grot tanks and 15 skorcha buggies but I'm a little leery of facing someone new and saying "Hey, wanna face my Unbound and Forge World list?!?".

;)

Not familiar with the grot armies, but would the list be balanced enough where it can deal with all types of opponents, or is it one of those that is amazing against certain army types and has no chance against others? I'd gladly play a game against the first type, but the second type is dull to play.

 

In example, I love my land raiders, can your grot tanks/skorchas damage it?

[Aventine]

In casual play, you can get away with anything. My opinion is that events/organized play, most organizers would say no.

 

 

I think most organizers would let it slide, since it really just boils down to what colour you painted your model, which I have never seen arbitrated in any way, at any event, ever. How is the judge going to determine if they are Exorcists, or just Crimson Fists in a special red desert camo with an alternate campaign badge anyway?

If you are playing as that Chapter in every way, rules-wise, then you can take the character legally; it is not discriminated by colour.

[WestRider]

My marines are a custom chapter, the Crimson Thunder, who I usually say are Counts As Crimson Fists. Is there any meaningful distinction between the two approaches?

[pretre]

I think the difference is that exorcists just get the chapter tactics. It isn't counts as; it is rules as. They only get the CT not the faction or army type.

 

Want to play exorcists as CF using CF rules and characters? Go for it. Want to use exorcists using FW rules? Go for it, but forge world doesn't make you crimson fists for his ability.

[Guest]

My marines are a custom chapter, the Crimson Thunder, who I usually say are Counts As Crimson Fists. Is there any meaningful distinction between the two approaches?

RAW, if you paint them as a specific chapter, then they are that chapter (C:SM does have a WYSIWYG requirement for painting). If they are Crimson Thunder Space Marines, then they'd be a Crimson Thunder detachment. You could still take chapter tactics (imperial fists), but pedro's "hold the line" and "Oath of Rynn" specifically only apply to a Crimson Fist detachment, not a Crimson Thunder one.

 

I do think most events don't care enough to bother enforcing it. It mostly penalizes creative painting, which is not something most events want - creativity is what makes their event look good.

 

The only issue would be if it's intended to mean that Lysander can't benefit from Pedro's ability, as Lysander is not part of the Crimson Fists. That would be a FAQ question, as the codex merely states that multiple chapters can be included in the same detachment using a given chapter tactic.

[WestRider]

It just seems strange to me that people are generally OK with me saying "These converted Skaven Count As IG", or "This Eversor Assassin Counts As Marbo", or "These Reaper models Count As Chaos Spawn", but "These SM Count As some other SM" is problematic, even tho the difference is just one of paint, but in the acceptable cases, the whole Model is entirely different.

[pretre]

RAW, if you paint them as a specific chapter, then they are that chapter (C:SM does have a WYSIWYG requirement for painting). If they are Crimson Thunder Space Marines, then they'd be a Crimson Thunder detachment. You could still take chapter tactics (imperial fists), but pedro's "hold the line" and "Oath of Rynn" specifically only apply to a Crimson Fist detachment, not a Crimson Thunder one.

 

I do think most events don't care enough to bother enforcing it. It mostly penalizes creative painting, which is not something most events want - creativity is what makes their event look good.

 

The only issue would be if it's intended to mean that Lysander can't benefit from Pedro's ability, as Lysander is not part of the Crimson Fists. That would be a FAQ question, as the codex merely states that multiple chapters can be included in the same detachment using a given chapter tactic.

No, this is wrong.

 

If you are playing a Crimson Thunder detachment using Crimson Fists rules, they count as Crimson Fists for all rules purposes. This is well established from an event standpoint. The problem becomes when you play Exorcists using Exorcist rules and want to use Crimson Fists rules. You don't get to do that.

[pretre]

It just seems strange to me that people are generally OK with me saying "These converted Skaven Count As IG", or "This Eversor Assassin Counts As Marbo", or "These Reaper models Count As Chaos Spawn", but "These SM Count As some other SM" is problematic, even tho the difference is just one of paint, but in the acceptable cases, the whole Model is entirely different.

People aren't confused; just Pax. :)

 

Counts as for space marine chapters is well accepted by every event I've ever been to.