chapters of unknown origins and special characters.

[Guest]

No, this is wrong.

 

If you are playing a Crimson Thunder detachment using Crimson Fists rules, they count as Crimson Fists for all rules purposes. This is well established from an event standpoint. The problem becomes when you play Exorcists using Exorcist rules and want to use Crimson Fists rules. You don't get to do that.

 

People aren't confused; just Pax. :)

 

Counts as for space marine chapters is well accepted by every event I've ever been to.

Look at that, pretre's wrong. Go figure.

 

First, I am talking about rules as written, not about what events do, as I've already established that I think events would allow it.

 

RAW, it's all in those paragraphs of the chapter tactics rules.

 

 

When choosing a space marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the chapters listed in this section. Mark the chapter you selected on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate chapter tactics for their detachment's chapter, providing they have the chapter tactics rule. Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of a specific chapter.

 

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from, and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the colour scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful.

 

successor chapters

 

if a detachment is from a successor chapter, you must adopt the chapter tactics of the first founding chapter from which that successor chapter descends. For example, a detachment of storm lordsuses the chapter tactics of the white scars, and a detachment of crimson fists uses the chapter tactics of the imperial fists.

 

The black templars

 

The black templars are the exception to the successor chapters rules; they are a successor chapter of the imperial fists, but use their own chapter tactics as details later in this section.

 

Chapters of your own devising

 

Many hobbyyists choose to invent their own space marine chapters, with their own unique colour schemes and heraldry. If you have done this with your own collection, you need to decide which first founding chapter your own space marine chapter descends from, and adopt the correct chapter tactics accordingly.

 

similarly, if the origins of your chapter aren't clear (if you've chosen and army whose past is shrouded in mystery, such asthe death spectres, for example), then simply choose the set of chapter tactics that you feel are most appropriate, and inform your opponent accordingly.

 

Allies

 

A space marine detachment chosen from this codex that has once set of chapter tactics may ally with another space marine detachment chosen from this codex that has a different set of chapter tactics (ultramarines and raven guard, for example). For the purposes of the allies rules, these detachments are treated as if they were chosen from two different codexes and are treated as battle brothers.

 

Note that you may field models from two different chapters that have the same chapter tactics (such as ultramarines and praetors of orpheus) in the same detachment - these chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single army on the battlefield.

Longest quote ever....

 

So, in West Riders case, he's running a custom chapter as per the rules for chapters of your own devising. He retains his chapter and uses the chapter tactics from the first founding chapter his army descends. His army is a Crimson Thunder detachement that uses imperial fists chapter tactics.

 

In my case, I'm running a non-custom chapter that has an unknown origin. This is also covered in the chapters of your own devising rules. The two are the same situation, as per the rules.

 

Our armies should both be obvious in our "colour" scheme and heraldry, on which chapter we are.

 

That said, I do full get that no event enforces this. I've made that point several times. I'm just saying the RAW has basically abolished the counts as SM army option. Counts as, where a custom chapter counts fully as a specified chapter, is presently a house rule use at most/all events.

 

In regards to pedro, he's one of a few characters that specify the chapter that they must accompany. Sicarus is specific to ultramarines tactical squads, not chapter tactics (ultramarines) squads. Chronus also requires an ultramarines tank, which is notable because tanks don't have the chapter tactics rule, so this is specific to detachments of ultramarines. And that's it, all the other special characters in that codex are specific to chapter tactics only.

 

I will note that even within the WYSIWYG and RAW approach explained above, they do establish that multiple chapters with the same chapter tactics are permited within the same detachment. So my Exorcists using imperial fist chapter tactics, could field lysander or pedro, we'd just need to paint him to his appropriate chapter colors. In regards to pedro's abilities, they probably wouldn't affect my exorcists in regards to the abilities that are specific to crimson fists. Likewise, If I ran the ultramarines chapter tactics, I could paint up a tank with ultramarine colours and heraldry and transplant it into my army for the purpose of being able to field chronus. It would be an exorcists and token ultramarines army.

[pretre]

    Look at that, pretre's wrong. Go figure.

It happens from time to time, but not here. :)

 

 

    So, in West Riders case, he's running a custom chapter as per the rules for chapters of your own devising. He retains his chapter and uses the chapter tactics from the first founding chapter his army descends. His army is a Crimson Thunder detachement that uses imperial fists chapter tactics.

Right, so he can use any rules that affect Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists. It's counts-as.

 

 

 

  In my case, I'm running a non-custom chapter that has an unknown origin. This is also covered in the chapters of your own devising rules. The two are the same situation, as per the rules.

Except that isn't the question you asked. You asked if you could use the FW exorcist rules and also get the benefit of Pedro. If you were just using the C:SM rules and counting your Exorcists as CF, you'd be fine, but you're not.

 

 

 

That said, I do full get that no event enforces this. I've made that point several times. I'm just saying the RAW has basically abolished the counts as SM army option. Counts as, where a custom chapter counts fully as a specified chapter, is presently a house rule use at most/all events.

Not totally correct, 'Chapters of your own devising' covers most of it. Although counts-as has seldom been fully covered in the rules, so you are partly correct that it has mainly been an event allowed thing.

Counts-as is also covered here:

 

 

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from, and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the colour scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful.

 

 

    In regards to pedro, he's one of a few characters that specify the chapter that they must accompany. Sicarus is specific to ultramarines tactical squads, not chapter tactics (ultramarines) squads. Chronus also requires an ultramarines tank, which is notable because tanks don't have the chapter tactics rule, so this is specific to detachments of ultramarines. And that's it, all the other special characters in that codex are specific to chapter tactics only.

Right, so if your army counts-as Ultramarines, you can take Chronus.

 

 

So my Exorcists using imperial fist chapter tactics, could field lysander or pedro, we'd just need to paint him to his appropriate chapter colors. In regards to pedro's abilities, they probably wouldn't affect my exorcists in regards to the abilities that are specific to crimson fists.

They would affect your dudes if you were counts-as CF and not using the FW exorcist rules.

 

 

Likewise, If I ran the ultramarines chapter tactics, I could paint up a tank with ultramarine colours and heraldry and transplant it into my army for the purpose of being able to field chronus. It would be an exorcists and token ultramarines army.

Or you could just field Exorcists with an exorcist tank using Ultramarine rules.

 

 

[Guest]

For the record, Exorcists don't have FW rules. Their chapter tactics are included in C:SM. FW clarifies it because they were handing out chapter specific chapter tactics to the other chapters in their Imperial Armour books. FW rules were linked because they spell it out better than C:SM.

 

In codex space marine, page 155, Exorcists are a chapter listed in the Unknown founding section.

 

The FW chapter tactics just say that Exorcists are an unknown founding chapter and use unknown founding rules as per C:SM.

 

Both books say the same thing. I'm highly disappointed on this front, as I really wanted chapter specific rules, even if they were only allowed where FW was legal.

 

 

Except that isn't the question you asked. You asked if you could use the FW exorcist rules and also get the benefit of Pedro. If you were just using the C:SM rules and counting your Exorcists as CF, you'd be fine, but you're not.
 

Not totally correct, 'Chapters of your own devising' covers most of it. Although counts-as has seldom been fully covered in the rules, so you are partly correct that it has mainly been an event allowed thing.

I don't think your correct on your interpretation of this second bit. Rules allow you to make your own chapter, but they don't allow it to count as a different chapter. They do permit and encourage use of the chapter tactics for a custom, unknown, or successor chapter. I do think the book choose a terrible name for the special rule, as chapter tactics is confusing if you intend to also use the term chapter at any point in the same codex.

 

Counts as is a house rule, even if all houses seem to use it. I don't mind this one, and actually enjoy it, but it remains a house rule.

 

Last version of the C:SM codex downright encouraged counts as, and it was part of their rules for that codex. This version includes no such notes that I can find.

 

In regards to Pedro, he is the only character where it matters after deployment. I remain unclear if this is GW's intention, or if they didn't seem to think that their short page of rules could generate this much thought...

[pretre]

 

 

    For the record, Exorcists don't have FW rules. Their chapter tactics are included in C:SM. FW clarifies it because they were handing out chapter specific chapter tactics to the other chapters in their Imperial Armour books. FW rules were linked because they spell it out better than C:SM.

Almost correct. Exorcists do have FW rules. Hence their presence in the linked PDF. Unfortunately for them, their FW rules are very limited (they get to choose a chapter tactic from C:SM)

"Chapter Tactics (Undetermined):
As suggested on page 77 of Codex: Space Marines, the Unknown Founding of the Exorcists and their secretive arts of war should be depicted by a Chapter Tactic of the player’s choosing from Codex: Space Marines"
So, if you play an Exorcists army using that PDF, you only get Chapter Tactics, you don't get to emulate an army (like Crimson Fists). If you do counts-as, you get to do both. Lesson here? Don't use the PDF for your exorcists army.

 

The FW chapter tactics just say that Exorcists are an unknown founding chapter and use unknown founding rules as per C:SM.

Actually, that's not what it says. See above.

 

I don't think your correct on your interpretation of this second bit. Rules allow you to make your own chapter, but they don't allow it to count as a different chapter. They do permit and encourage use of the chapter tactics for a custom, unknown, or successor chapter. I do think the book choose a terrible name for the special rule, as chapter tactics is confusing if you intend to also use the term chapter at any point in the same codex.

I disagree and I posted the quotes in my previous post.

 

 

Counts as is a house rule, even if all houses seem to use it. I don't mind this one, and actually enjoy it, but it remains a house rule.

Agreed, except for a short time in 5th (and maybe 4th), I believe it's always been a house rule.

 

In regards to Pedro, he is the only character where it matters after deployment. I remain unclear if this is GW's intention, or if they didn't seem to think that their short page of rules could generate this much thought...

Since we don't know intent (and cannot know intent), we must go by the rules as written. Pedro requires CF to work.    

 

[Guest]

Almost correct. Exorcists do have FW rules. Hence their presence in the linked PDF. Unfortunately for them, their FW rules are very limited (they get to choose a chapter tactic from C:SM)

 

"Chapter Tactics (Undetermined):

As suggested on page 77 of Codex: Space Marines, the Unknown Founding of the Exorcists and their secretive arts of war should be depicted by a Chapter Tactic of the player’s choosing from Codex: Space Marines"

So, if you play an Exorcists army using that PDF, you only get Chapter Tactics, you don't get to emulate an army (like Crimson Fists). If you do counts-as, you get to do both. Lesson here? Don't use the PDF for your exorcists army.

Huh.....How is this different from using C:SM's unknown founding rules? Just curious. Seems like the FW rules direct you to C:SM rules.

 

Or are you suggesting that I use the "counts as" house rule, and ignore the unknown founding rule?

[pretre]

Huh.....How is this different from using C:SM's unknown founding rules? Just curious. Seems like the FW rules direct you to C:SM rules.

 

Or are you suggesting that I use the "counts as" house rule, and ignore the unknown founding rule?

I do suggest you use counts-as if you want Pedro to be part of your Exorcists. Otherwise, he doesn't work. That's what I've said all along.

[Guest]

I do suggest you use counts-as if you want Pedro to be part of your Exorcists. Otherwise, he doesn't work. That's what I've said all along.

Then I think we agree...RAW says that my exorcists (and west riders' crimson thunder) aren't crimson fists, unless we use the counts as house rule...right?

[pretre]

I'm going to reverse my statement that count-as is really only a house rule based on the rules posted earlier in this thread:

 

"When choosing a space marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the chapters listed in this section. Mark the chapter you selected on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate chapter tactics for their detachment's chapter, providing they have the chapter tactics rule. Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of a specific chapter.

 

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from, and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the colour scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful."

 

This seems to allow count-as perfectly well. There's nothing that says that the heraldry/colors have to match the chapter you chose. It simply says:

1) Pick a chapter when choosing your detachment

2) Mark it on your roster and gain all the benefits of that chapter.

3) Tell your opponent what chapter your detachment is from and what abilities they get.

 

Nothing in that says that they have to be painted or modeled as that chapter. So if you use C:SM, you can take your Exorcist army, pick Ultramarines as their chapter, mark it on your roster and gain the benefits and then tell your opponent you are playing Ultramarines using an Exorcist color scheme. C:SM entirely supports that within the rules.

 

It still does not allow you to use the Exorcist FW rules (which require you to use the 'Chapters of your own devising' section) and to mix them with Pedro's chapter rules. That's fine though, since the first section allows counts-as anyways.

[Guest]

I'm going to reverse my statement that count-as is really only a house rule based on the rules posted earlier in this thread:

 

"When choosing a space marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the chapters listed in this section. Mark the chapter you selected on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate chapter tactics for their detachment's chapter, providing they have the chapter tactics rule. Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of a specific chapter.

 

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from, and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the colour scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful."

 

This seems to allow count-as perfectly well. There's nothing that says that the heraldry/colors have to match the chapter you chose. It simply says:

1) Pick a chapter when choosing your detachment

2) Mark it on your roster and gain all the benefits of that chapter.

3) Tell your opponent what chapter your detachment is from and what abilities they get.

 

Nothing in that says that they have to be painted or modeled as that chapter. So if you use C:SM, you can take your Exorcist army, pick Ultramarines as their chapter, mark it on your roster and gain the benefits and then tell your opponent you are playing Ultramarines using an Exorcist color scheme. C:SM entirely supports that within the rules.

 

It still does not allow you to use the Exorcist FW rules (which require you to use the 'Chapters of your own devising' section) and to mix them with Pedro's chapter rules. That's fine though, since the first section allows counts-as anyways.

Are you just changing your opinion so we don't agree?

[pretre]

Are you just changing your opinion so we don't agree?

Although I am very contrary, in this case, no, I am not doing that.

 

I just reread the rules you posted in order to respond to your post and noticed that counts-as was covered.

[Guest]

Although I am very contrary, in this case, no, I am not doing that.

 

I just reread the rules you posted in order to respond to your post and noticed that counts-as was covered.

Hmmm...well, I'll admit, 2 pages with the same section always quoted, I was pretty happy we were agreeing.

 

Maybe I'll come back to this thread, but I'm agreeing that we disagree for now. I need to get ready for GG league...

[pretre]

You didn't quote that section prior to this page. You quoted the successor chapter stuff which doesn't really cover what I'm talking about.