Can we start a discussion/education about Line of Sight?

[Lion of Flanders]

OK, so for my continuing education about the game (and perhaps there are others who's confusion rivals my own) ...can we talk about line of sight? I've played a few games this year and have been told what seem to be different things about LOS compared to what appears to be what is written in the RB.

 

1). True LOS means that if a model can trace an actual line to its target, it can see it. Sounds great.....

 

A) so you can shoot through another unit because you can always find some lines through the models....but target gets a cover penalty to hit, true? Or no?

B) what about skirmishers in the second and third ranks...can they shoot through their own unit?

C) intervening unit friendly or enemy....does it make a difference?

 

Perhaps this has been covered somewhere? The RB has a few photo examples which are informative....what would be great is to compile a list of photo examples with rulings from the collective wisdom of the group. Thoughts?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

A) Yes and the target gets a Hard Cover Bonus. (-2 to hit.)

 

B) I don't remember if squimishers get the volley fire rule, don't think so, so only the first two ranks can fire if not.

 

C) No, an unit is an unit.

 

I am going to look up skimishers again and see if they count as hard cover if firing through. Might be a different game but I thought they didn't. But don't hold me to that yet.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ok, update. Skirmishers do not have an inherent volley fire, so they fire as normal. Also I am crazy, skirmishers do apparently count as a normal hard cover when firing through. (I know two different games where that is the opposite. Rules-overlap.)

 

But yeah, let's keep this going.

[Lion of Flanders]

OK Cool. So fire through any unit=hard cover.

 

Now..some shooting models in the shooting unit have unobstructed LOS and some are shooting thru a unit. Who gets the penalty? Only those obstructed? Majority rules?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

pg 41 is a must read for this and has a great example of these scenarios.

 

In short, yes majority rules.

[Drak]

there is a difference between hard cover (50% obscured) and soft cover (less than 50%). and yes each model shooting has it's own line of sight. so it's possible for some models in the unit to have different modifiers than others.

[Lion of Flanders]

OK...seems to be a difference of opinion. Which is it Fellow Wise Ordoians?

[Iraf]

there is a difference between hard cover (50% obscured) and soft cover (less than 50%). and yes each model shooting has it's own line of sight. so it's possible for some models in the unit to have different modifiers than others.

 

It's not how much of the model is obscured defining it as hard (-2 to hit) or soft (-1 to hit).  It's what is obscuring it that defines the type of cover.  Page 41 clearly goes over this. 

[MexicanNinja]

there is a difference between hard cover (50% obscured) and soft cover (less than 50%). and yes each model shooting has it's own line of sight. so it's possible for some models in the unit to have different modifiers than others.

It's not 50% more or 50% less that determines the type of cover granted.  Shooting through units grant hard cover and as Iraf stated, there is a specific page which goes over the type of cover.  Then there are also other qualifiers.  For instance, a large target could gain hard cover from being behind a unit but can't claim cover bonuses from other-certain sources.

[Drak]

I was referencing pg 41: if the majority of the models in a target unit (or more than half of the target model, if going against a single model) is obscured from the shooting models view by other models (friend or enemy) or by terrain then an additional to hit modifier is applied.

 

it's been my experience that the vast majority of the time players look to see 1) does the model shooting have LOS to the target 2) is the majority of the unit/model being targeted obstructed by other things (this is where players take shortcuts and usually default to hard cover, as it's rare to see hedges on a battlefield) 3) apply modifier.

 

practically speaking if a monsterous infantry (ie crypt horror) is standing behind (any skaven unit) then it usually is played as a soft cover modifier as less than 50% of the crypt horror is obstructed. but I'll readily admit I could be playin it wrong as my army (vamps) doesn't do much BS shooting :)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So I went back to the book and reread page 41 and it does not say that if less than half the unit is behind a building, unit, other forms of cover that the unit gets soft cover. In fact it says the unit does not benefit from cover at all unless half or more of the unit, or model, is behind the cover.

 

And to clarify the LOS is for individual models, you can have two different sets of to hit numbers for the unit, but the model's los to its target is a majority rules. Unless of course you are referencing an errata.

[Don't Panic]

yea hard/soft is pending what the obstruction is.  TLoS is dicey so we actually played a 'tiered' system when playing fun games in iowa(swarm<infantry<cav/monstrous<monster/large target).  so infantry shooting over infantry=hard.  infantry shooting over swarm=soft.  but thats not how the ruleset is :)  its any model that is >50% obstructed of the target.  so yea technically its applied to each model individually, not as a whole unit.  the way to figure cover is a little complex but i found the easiest way is to use your tape measure.  make it straight to cut through the middle of the target unit and make the line touch the corner of the obstruction and then through your unit.  that line is the cover line.  once again, hard/soft is pending what the obstruction is.  

[Lion of Flanders]

And to clarify the LOS is for individual models, you can have two different sets of to hit numbers for the unit, but the model's los to its target is a majority rules. Unless of course you are referencing an errata.

I'm not sure I understand that....do you mean that a majority of models in the shooting unit have to have LOS to a target in order to shoot?

[MexicanNinja]

I'm not sure I understand that....do you mean that a majority of models in the shooting unit have to have LOS to a target in order to shoot?

No, here's a more simple example:

 

A unit of 10 archers is shooting a "unit of something". The first rank of the target unit is just inside short range. The first rank of archers has no modifiers and the second rank of archers is at long range and receive a -1 to hit (long range). 5 archers with a BS3 need a 4 to hit while the second ranks would need 5's.

 

Now, if the target unit is the same distance and in a forrest the the first rank would be hitting on 5's and the second rank would be hitting on 6's. They receive a -1 for soft cover and the second receives the additional -1 for long range.

 

Now, the same 10 archers are shooting at a different unit. However, when you determine who is in the front arc of the archers, you discover that only 6 of the models are able to see the target unit. 3 from the front rank and 3 from the second rank. Only those 6 models are able to make a shooting attack and you apply the appropriate modifiers.

 

I hope that helps.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Sorry, my communication skills have failed here.

 

Your shooting units ability to shoot is determined by individual models not a unit as a whole.

 

Example would be a giant near a house or tower and your unit has different views of it depending on which model you are looking from. Some models may not be able to see it and can not fire at all. Some will see less than half of the giant and will have a -2 from hard cover to shoot at it. (Hard cover is determined by the cover, which in this case is a building.) Some models will be able to see more than half of the giant's model and will have no modifiers to its shot.

 

So there will be three different qualifiers that can determine the shooter's ability to fire here.

 

Hope this is clear if not maybe someone else can state it better.

 

Also I should mention, as MN brought it up, modifiers stack Except cover modifiers. Like MN said if a unit is firing at a unit at long range (-1) at a unit in a forest (-1 soft cover) it will be a -2 total. But if you are firing at a unit in a forest (-1) behind another unit (-2 hard cover) it will only be a -2 and at long range that same shot would be -3.

 

Does that make sense?

[Lion of Flanders]

Yes, it does.  Thanks.

[MexicanNinja]

Here's a little more clarification on the rule.  The majority of  this is referenced on page 41 of the MRB.

 

1) The 50% rule only applies when shooting at single models.

 

2) The majority of the models in the unit, when determining LOS, only need to be obscured.  This means there is no 50%.  They simply need to be obscured.  So, if the majority of the target unit is at all obscured from the unit who is shooting at them then the target unit will receive the appropriate cover save.  If the majority of the target unit was only 10% obscured by the unit who is shooting at them then they would get the appropriate cover save.  This is to keep a lord on a dragon, or any other character on a large target, gaining cover from the ankle of his dragon being obscured by the unit who is shooting at them.

 

3) It also states that some of the models who are shooting at a unit may have some models with clear shots and the others will not.  This will then give the target unit a cover save against the models who have an obscured LOS to the target unit.

 

4) Hedges, fences, wagons, or other 'soft' terrain is soft cover.

 

5) Stone walls, boulders, buildings and suchlike are hard cover.  This also includes intervening units.

 

6) When shooting at large targets you need to reference the rule for large targets.  They can never claim a cover save from an obstacle. 

 

7) Large targets can claim the appropriate cover save from being obscured by intervening units.  They cannot claim cover saves from walls, fences, hedges (as these are in the obstacles section).

 

8) If you are shooting at a model with the large target rule then the large target would have to be 50% obscured to claim the appropriate cover save.  If you are shooting a unit of models with the large target rule then if they are obscured at all they would get the appropriate cover save.  However, I can't think of a unit with the large target rule.

 

In conclusion, it looks like the majority of us have a good understanding of the rule; however, if you don't reference the 3 different rules sections nor read all of the sentences on page 41 I could see how this could be confusing.  I am not trying to downplay anyone's intelligence, I was just trying to simply state certain parts of the rule book.

 

I'll be referencing the FAQ/errata here shortly and if I notice anything that applies to cover saves, I will post that as well.

 

I hope this helps to clarify the cover talk.