Named Characters and End Times

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So with most the books now in hard back and the End Times upon us do you think we will have more games with named characters? Are there many that are under costed and OOT?

[rudra34]

Right now there are very few SC that I feel are OP. 8th edition has done a decent job of making them a bit more balanced. In most cases, you can build your own characters who are much more abusive.

[ratrek]

Teclis and Karios are still bull crap, the rest seem fine.

[MexicanNinja]

I 100% agree with rudra. A nurgle dp build is better than most special characters. At first glance, the sc may seem otp, but when yo read what rules and gear they have...not so much. Most sc provide a specific role for an army and most characters aren't going to beat ranked up units on their own. You can get more out of a kitted out doombull or nurgle dp than you will helebrone.

[MexicanNinja]

Teclis and Karios are still bull crap, the rest seem fine.

Teclis isn't half the elf he used to be. A loremaster with a book of hoeth is more potent.

[rudra34]

Got to be honest, I would not mind being able to play with Drycha in my forest spirit list.  Realistically she's over-priced, but shadow magic and deep-striking treemen sound awesome! 

[MexicanNinja]

That's the thing, she allows a great tactical feature to the army, has a heavy points cost, and doesn't make the army unbeatable. It would be extremely awesome to have the ability to use treeman differently. She makes the tree-army more of a threat.

 

I'd be all for a game against you, just so you can see how it works.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I would love to try a Malus Darkblade list with CO knights and chariots. Over priced but it would be cool to watch that charge. And my Orcs could really use the named character love, especially the night gobos.

 

Maybe we can try some out after OFCC.

[Iraf]

You should check out the Black Sheep Brawl next spring in Salem.  We allow armies to have a special character. Also, you could sign up for the Ordo Open on Friday.  Non comp, should be a blast.

[AgentP]

Yes, I think the time has come to include SCs.  They way to do that is to start playing with them at game night and just make it feel like the norm.

[MexicanNinja]

Iraf, yup I'm in the open and have a sc or two in my list.

 

Agent, I've brought malekith a few times with me.

[dkieft]

Dear People who want to play with Special Characters and occasionally bring this subject up,

 

Next time you go to game night or otherwise play a game, bring two lists, one with SC, one without SC. Before the game, ask if your opponent would be okay with you playing with a special character(s). I bet 4 out of 5 say "Go for it". Just remember, if you opponent doesn't want you to, then be a good sport about it. And if they do want you to go ahead with it, don't curb stomp their army and 'prove' that SC's are too powerful for a fun game.

 

Yours truly,

The rest of the Warhammer players.

 

 

Seriously though, I have never had an opponent ask to use them when getting ready for a game (of course most of my non-event games are against people who still have grudges against SC's). If you want to use them though, just talk to your opponent. If you show enough people it's not so bad (in actual games, not theoryhammer) then more people will be accepting of it. Heck maybe next years OFCC could have Monsters and Special Characters! (and 4000 points!)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Dkeift, you're right and I think bringing a second list is a good idea. (was planning that for the first couple of game nights just in case.)

 

But there has been a lot of bad feelings against named characters from the past that this just feels like a touchy subject, though the general responses have been in more favor of the idea than against so maybe this will change with the end of soft backs.

 

Maybe I should bring some named characters down and play against Raindog so he can beat one down just for good measure.

[MexicanNinja]

Honestly, in all my years of playing warhammer, since 2005, only the people I've played with at game night have had an issue with named characters. That's the only place I've encountered who have players who don't want to play against them or see them on the table.

[dkieft]

Honestly, in all my years of playing warhammer, since 2005, only the people I've played with at game night have had an issue with named characters. That's the only place I've encountered who have players who don't want to play against them or see them on the table.

They were really bad (many of them) for a really long time. Now that most are balanced though, people just need to see them in action to understand it.

 

Beyond just power however I always feel that SC's should be leading a grand army if they are on the field.... It's Karl Franz and his 2400 point scout group!  Yeah, just does not seem right to me. When I see them I want them to be at the head of the horde of legend! Problem is, that just isn't a game night sorta scenario.

[MexicanNinja]

Why wouldn't Karl Franz lead a 2.4k army?  Maybe he showed up to lift the morale of a portion of his army.  Many general's just show up to show the troops that hope isn't lost and the battle may still be won.  Think outside the box.  Perhaps the 2.4k battle is a skirmish for an important part of the map which the grand battle is being fought and if that section of the map is lost to the enemy then they will gain valuable ground for their army.

 

Yes, back then characters were insane; however, that's due to how unit strength and forcing the loss of rank bonuses for the unit a lone character was engaged with.

 

Look at how any lord on a dragon operates differently in this edition.

 

Is a supreme sorceress on a dark peg wearing a cloak of twilight and casting lore of death is less potent in a 2.5k game than special characters?  I think not (and most times cheaper in points), in fact, like I've stated before, just about any of us can look at an army book and in roughly 15 min come up with a character build which is much more threatening than the special characters available to that army.

[dkieft]

Why wouldn't Karl Franz lead a 2.4k army?  Maybe he showed up to lift the morale of a portion of his army.  Many general's just show up to show the troops that hope isn't lost and the battle may still be won.  Think outside the box.  Perhaps the 2.4k battle is a skirmish for an important part of the map which the grand battle is being fought and if that section of the map is lost to the enemy then they will gain valuable ground for their army.

 

Note my use of the words "I feel". Talking about me here, not "out of box ways to explain why an SC is in a tiny army". Yes, I know internet people... hard to believe that other internet users feel anything at all...

 

Yes indeed, I feel they are more fitting in large battle... that's where I feel they fit best in the game. I am not saying people can't use them in in smaller games (heck many smaller SC's are perfect there) and what the hell! Make scenarios designed to use them! Whatever.... Just if I decided to put one on the table, I'd like it to be leading a horde.

[MexicanNinja]

Yes, I read that you said I feel. That's why I responded with thinking outside the box. I don't play many games above the 2.5k range so that's why I used my example.

[wisetiger7]

This has probably been suggested numerous times before (I know I've suggested it to my own team): What do you guys think of having a large multiplayer campaign on a club level? Each army can be led by Lord level SC/non-SC, and we play out scenarios that make sense with the narrative?

 

For example, let's say a WoC army is besieging an Empire castle. Put on a series of tiny warband/skirmish games that ultimately impacts the outcome of the final battle. Maybe the besieged player wants to try and get a messenger out to request the help of a nearby ally. If the messenger warband wins, the besieged player gets aid in the form of an extra 500 pts of Dwarf allies. Or maybe the WoC player decides to try and sneak some scouts into the castle under nightfall to help open the gates during the main battle. Or maybe both sides have allies in the form of dwarfs and skaven, the rats trying to tunnel under the walls to collapse them, and the dwarfs trying to prevent that from happening, resulting in an underground battle as described in the ET:N book, while the main battle rages on above ground, etc.

 

Not only would this be awesome as all hell, but it would give us a chance to see what these famed special characters can actually do in battle, small and large. It would take a lot of effort on the part of the organizer though, to come up with narrative battles. But since many people meet weekly at WOW, it could be done...

[MexicanNinja]

I love that stuff and would play something like that. Heck, I have yet to play a siege game, and from the batreps I've seen it looks awesome. I love narrative campaigns. The last one I did was in eugene. We had a map board and every army had a certain ability.

[ratrek]

I don't agree with that MN. In fact I think he's worse now that he can miscast protection from the Banner and you can funnel him extra dice via another mage with the Forbidden Rod and not worry about the potential damage.

 

Him aside, Karios can still dominate a game.

 

Epi in a build where he can stay off the table and still up the counter is wildly annoying too, but that's only because the strong Nurlge Daemon build is mind numbing to play against in the first place.

[wisetiger7]

I have to agree with MN on Teclis. IF on any double was way worse that adding an extra die. Also, he is no longer Loremaster of any chosen lore, only High Magic. Yes, choosing any 1 spell each from the basic 8 can be powerful, but many of the basic 8 spells are synergistic with other spells in the same lore (i.e. Throne of Vines with most of the other Life spells, or Kindleflame lore attribute with other Fire spells, etc). Having access to all the spells in a single lore would have been more potent.

 

Furthermore, at S2/T2, he is extremely vulnerable, but going to S1/T1 after Staff use?! If he wasn't just begging to be Dwellers'd already, he will be after using the Staff. With WS3 and no innate saves built in, unless you're running High Magic on him, he's as good as dead. Even BotWD won't help him survive a charge from fast cav or other chaff.

 

He is still very powerful. Don't get me wrong. But MN is right; Teclis is weaker than before, though not by much. He's a glass cannon, just more glassy than before.

 

I will, however, have to disagree with "loremaster with Book of Hoeth" part. But that's just because I think loremasters are sh!te. They don't even get Lileath's Blessing! A regular L4 with Book is better, imo, and cheaper. +5 to cast should always be your go-to for Helf magic phase. +2 from a Loremaster means half the spells need minimum 2 dice on average just to cast with the book. It is just too risky to cast otherwise.

 

Plus there's the juxtaposition of "Is he combat oriented or magic oriented?" Earthblood does almost nothing for him, if the latter. And let's face it, you're probably going to give him TaliPres anyway, so it's utterly redundant. Deflect Shots is garbage. Martial Prowess is wasted as he will never be in the third rank. So you're wasting points on a model that doesn't really benefit at all from half his combat-based special rules.

 

If you are caster oriented, then you are sorely overpaying for a combat element you won't use. If you are going combat, he can die easily, plus half his spells are gone once you're in base-to-base with something.

 

If a loremaster is ever to be used, I would think a high-points game would be fine, with another main L4 caster, while the loremaster can buff his own unit or miasma his enemy as he wades into battle. L4 High Magic won't use many dice, as most spells can be 1-diced with Book. Hopefully that will leave a few dice left for a loremaster to use prior to combat.

 

Just my tw...enty cents. 

 

Oh, and don't even get me started about the whole "Why the eff doesn't a loremaster have the "Loremaster" special rule?!?"   And that goes for "High Loremaster" Teclis too!!! 

[MexicanNinja]

Ratek, I'm not making my judgements on sc with the combo of units or magic gear for units they can join. I just do care if my opponent would bring teclis. He just doesn't cast the same.

 

 

Wise, I say that about the loremaster and book of hoeth because he brings a spell for any situation. He can character snipe, buff, hex, kill chaff, deal with high armour, and can cast most of them with a high success rate on 2D6 because of the book. Most level 4's are pretty much guaranteed 1 spell per turn whereas the combo of loremaster and book will get you 3-4.

[dkieft]

Wisetiger, I find all my campaign plans are dashed a few scenarios in by players who can't make sessions regularly. In all my attempts I have had no shortage of people wanting to play, the problem is getting everyone together for each session.

 

I think the trick is to have them often enough to keep people interested and active, but scheduled in a way that the players can reliably show. You also have the issue of determining battle participants so all players get games in and so forth. Blood in the Badlands had a pretty decent campaign system if you can nail down a reliable group for it, and there was an island based one in a WD years ago that was really good. Without a premade (weather straight or altered) campaign you have a ton of work figuring out how to make it all work.

[ratrek]

Fair enough MN, but for a guy that likes to look at the big picture of army synergy, that seems out of your character.