Future of Fantasy, spoiler free please

[Brother Glacius]

So I finally got my End Times book and have been reading it (only to page 66 though) and I have to say, wow. Lots of major changes to the world that has lasted for several editions. What I'd like to do is have a discussion about what this could mean for the game in general. I don't want to get into specifics (hence the no spoilers comment), but we could speculate as to what these changes could actually mean to the game itself.

 

1) Loss of certain armies - could this really be a thing? Would GW be bold enough to drop some of the poor selling armies in order to streamline things? They would certainly piss off a lot of people. But as WFB has been declining anyways...is it time? Also, you could argue that many of those models could be used as allies in whatever new books are released. Many armies started out as minor players, and then were expanded...perhaps it is time to make them minor again. 40K has done really well with allies being implemented. I think fantasy could benefit from it as well.

 

2) Combining books - Another way to consolidate would be to combine certain armies. Chaos has spawned three books, undead two. Putting those together would allow removal of some units. It also allows for greater flexibility in the lists. Lets face it, part of fantasy's problem is that there are so many armies to try and cover between editions. They need to knock down the number of armies.

 

This all sort of leads into an idea that Fantasy needs saving. I can't really disagree with that statement. I've barely felt inspired to play fantasy, despite how much I love the setting. I think GW went too far in expanding the game. They kept pushing to make armies bigger and the model count grow. In my opinion, they have simply made it too hard to sustain for most players.

 

I think fantasy needs a major overhaul. I think GW needs to figure out how to draw people into the game. New story line is a great start. But then they are going to have to make it financially viable. That means either less models, or cheaper models needed to play. And they need to give you a reason to buy more. How are they going to do that?

 

 

 

[ClassicFlava]

I actually strongly disagree that fantasy needs an overhaul. I think it needs a few tweeks here and there, but the large scale is what draws me towards fantasy and I would hate to see that changed. As for consolidating armies I would love to see chaos go back to being combined instead of 3 books. Most people I have talked to say the new edition of 40k is pretty bad so I am hoping they don't go that direction with fantasy. Other than cost to play what are your reasons for thinking fantasy needs an overhaul?

[Iraf]

I think you should change the title to SPOILERS ALERT!! And then let people talk about all the stuff happening in the End Times. Open the floodgates!

[Brother Glacius]

I'm looking at it from a hobby growth point of view. Why is Fantasy declining, how do you get people to buy and play? First off, Fantasy has a higher learning curve for general play. It is simply more complicated to play fantasy than it is 40K at the basic rules level. Next, to reach a decent level of balance, you have to have a sizable army...or more accurately, a sizable point value. That means some armies (ie horde) are very expensive to collect in order to reach that point.

 

For example, the old battle boxes for 40K...you could pretty much play the game using those. Not so much with fantasy. Try playing an undead army under 1000pts. Not fun.

 

So it takes a greater investment, pretty much all around, to play fantasy. That is hurting the hobby. GW needs to structure it so that it is easier/cheaper to get into, and still plays fairly balanced at the lower point games.

 

I think that with the End Times story line, GW has an excuse to make major changes finally. For a declining game, what is there for them to lose at this point?

[ClassicFlava]

I like that it has a learning to curve to play.  Leaves more room for development as a player.  Also seeing how well the End of Times book has sold tells me the game is not in decline, but instead starting an upswing.  Any large scale battle game is going to be more expensive to play because you need more models.  Nothing you can do about that but lower prices.  I think the new wood elf stuff sold well too.  Not sure about Oregon, but over the last year Warhammer is making quite a comeback here in the Seattle area.  

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I am worried a little, I find 40K is less about tactics than it is about list building. (ie. strategy) If GW would bring back Mordheim then they can have a game based on fewer models, but GW purposely wanted players to buy More models so they nixed Mordheim. They also have been trying to get 40k players to buy more models in several ways. Power Creep, Allies, Apocalypse and book after book with formations that require a very specific build.

 

I love the tactical depth of WHFB and would hate for them to dumb it down to a Point-and-Shoot game like 6th ed 40K. I have not touched my 40K army in over a year and dread the thought of a game of 40K still because it is seriously unbalanced and to get back in to the game I would need to buy a lot of new models along with the 5000+ of my Dark Angels.

 

So I really really hate the idea of GW making WHFB more like 40K. I own 3 armies and would hate to see those become self dust collectors.

[MexicanNinja]

I don't like comparing 40k to fantasy. They are played completely different.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I don't like compIaring 40k to fantasy. They are played completely different.

They really are and should stay that way. But right now most of the rumors are stating that WHFB will be more like 40K soon, as if that was a good thing. And this was coming from supposed solid sources. (Harry off Warseer and FatherGabe.)

 

I'm just glad I haven't swallowed the KoolAid yet. Keep a classical warfare game classical warfare, don't try to turn it into a modern warfare style game.

[dkieft]

I think 40K should be more like fantasy... square bases, rank and file units. Yes please!

[MexicanNinja]

They really are and should stay that way. But right now most of the rumors are stating that WHFB will be more like 40K soon, as if that was a good thing. And this was coming from supposed solid sources. (Harry off Warseer and FatherGabe.)

 

I'm just glad I haven't swallowed the KoolAid yet. Keep a classical warfare game classical warfare, don't try to turn it into a modern warfare style game.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't care for rumors, no matter who they come from.

[dkieft]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't care for rumors, no matter who they come from.

Rumor has it, that you secretly like rumors... that's what I heard from  a reliable source anyway.

[MexicanNinja]

Rumor has it, that you secretly like rumors... that's what I heard from  a reliable source anyway.

Dang, you're on to me ;)

[Brother Glacius]

I am worried a little, I find 40K is less about tactics than it is about list building. (ie. strategy) If GW would bring back Mordheim then they can have a game based on fewer models, but GW purposely wanted players to buy More models so they nixed Mordheim. They also have been trying to get 40k players to buy more models in several ways. Power Creep, Allies, Apocalypse and book after book with formations that require a very specific build.

 

I love the tactical depth of WHFB and would hate for them to dumb it down to a Point-and-Shoot game like 6th ed 40K. I have not touched my 40K army in over a year and dread the thought of a game of 40K still because it is seriously unbalanced and to get back in to the game I would need to buy a lot of new models along with the 5000+ of my Dark Angels.

 

So I really really hate the idea of GW making WHFB more like 40K. I own 3 armies and would hate to see those become self dust collectors.

Yes, GW does want you to buy more models and have given people reason to buy more for 40K. That doesn't mean it is required though. That is the key difference. Fantasy requires you to invest more into it.

 

I think fantasy needs to be more accessible like 40K is. That doesn't mean it needs to play like 40K.

[scottshoemaker]

Yes, GW does want you to buy more models and have given people reason to buy more for 40K. That doesn't mean it is required though. That is the key difference. Fantasy requires you to invest more into it.

 

I think fantasy needs to be more accessible like 40K is. That doesn't mean it needs to play like 40K.

This is the main reason I bailed on Fantasy.  I no longer have any armies or desire to play.

[Fixxer]

 

 

This all sort of leads into an idea that Fantasy needs saving. I can't really disagree with that statement. I've barely felt inspired to play fantasy, despite how much I love the setting. I think GW went too far in expanding the game. They kept pushing to make armies bigger and the model count grow. In my opinion, they have simply made it too hard to sustain for most players.

 

I think fantasy needs a major overhaul. I think GW needs to figure out how to draw people into the game. New story line is a great start. But then they are going to have to make it financially viable. That means either less models, or cheaper models needed to play. And they need to give you a reason to buy more. How are they going to do that?

Wow, this again. 

 

Fantasy has never been better. The model kits, the game, the community.  Sci Fi is simply more popular in our CULTURE, therefor 40k WILL be more popular on the surface. This doesnt mean that Fantasy is failing or in need of anything. 

 

I really dont see any basis for this thread other than personal preference. You have armies BroG, you are constantly trying to sell them on this site, I see it all the time. YOU just gotta PLAY THE GAME.  1000 points if that all you can AFFORD, then save up, take time, paint your models. The options are already there for smaller games. 

 

This is not an instant gratification kind of endeavor, its a labor of love and time, which isnt for everyone. Id rather only play against people who are in it for the right reasons, having to play casual gamers in a game that takes dedication can be boring. I do like the exclusivity of the game and the type of people it takes to execute. Anyone who has a fully painted fantasy army is a dedicated hard worker and it will show in their personality and the way they play the game, those are the people I seek out to spend time with in this hobby. Casual Warhammerers got it all wrong, they want to come in drop $200  (not anymore! )  every time the new "top" [big bad swear word] comes out and are so WAAC that they need to dumb down the rules to make it easier for them, no thanks. Every army in this game has a learning curve, some are less obvious than others, take the time, every army doesnt play like WoC. 

 

The game doesnt need saving, Its more fun now than its ever been.   IMHO. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

First I really need to stop reading rumor forums out of boredom, it just makes me shake my head.

 

Now my main,concern is GW duming down the game. Make it more accessible, but keep the tactical depth for the game.

 

Otherwise I might just stick to 8th if they destroy it with more point and shoot style of play. Winning should be earned, not given to the Net Lister with the new toy.

[ClassicFlava]

I couldn't agree with you more fixxer.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Also as for number count of models played there are several armies out there that can do MSU armies that will stomp all over hordes easily. Horde armies don't do as well as many think, against a good player that 500 point unit may only get chaff units for points earned while their opponent mops up the rest of your army. And the number 6 spell of every lore is an anti-horde monster.

 

But these tactics take time and commitment to learn. I'm still in need of much advice but slowly getting my way up there.

[MexicanNinja]

Not every 6 spell is a horde stopper. Also, it's not a horde army if you only have 1 horde unit.

 

I also agree with fixxer. Fantasy is an amazing game right now. Every army has a special feel to it. The possibilities for army lits are huge. The main reason we don't see the vast differences is because of how each army deals with the current meta at you lgs or gaming clubs.

 

For example, I have watched a lot of battle reports involving dark elves. Not a single one was a cav army (like I consistently use). They are formed around witches and/or executioneers. Both are units I have no desire to use. I am willing to bet that if I pulled my army out against most of those players, they wouldn't know or understand the power of my de cav list. However, the people who play at ordo and ancient wonders have great experience againt my de cav army and have adapted to play against it.

 

The same would be true if one of the other de players came to a game night. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I love the current variety and tactical challenges 8th presents.