Next: Dark Eldar

[pretre]

I want a mechanical tail!  

I don't think that one is mechanical...

[fluger]

Fine!  I just want a tail!  

[pretre]

Fine!  I just want a tail!  

That didn't work out so well for the dude in Orphan Black...

[fluger]

I need to watch that...

[winterman]

Wracks still listed as Elites.  Doesn't mean much I suppose, as it could change when the new dex preorders.  Definitely gives me pause though.  

 

Also part of the codex cover artwork can be seen on the how to paint wracks youtube

 

[Lord Hanaur]

Wracks?  Elites?  Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.  They musn't.  Unless they unlock the troops thing.  Dont see why they are moving away from that.  Purifiers got boned hard with that whole Crowe no longer making them troops thing.

[galahad911]

Given how the codexes have come out since SM, I'm not sure what would make you guys so hopeful that DE are going to end up "stronger" when the only ones getting that treatment are Imperial armies. All of the xenos post Eldar have been somewhere between bad and underwhelming. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Not sure we think itll happen. Just hoping it all makes 7E sense

[galahad911]

Do Orks make 7E sense to you? Not to me, at least imo

 

Tyranids? smh

 

Hoping/thinking warriors are going to get an overhaul when they do their job well enough compared to most troops in the game seems unlikely to me.

 

Hoping/thinking wracks are going to move to troops is, again imo, unlikely at best.

 

I have a Tyranid book that has several melee units that fall down because of a lack of any way to get to melee. I'd be, literally, shocked it GW thinks you need anything more than access to DE assault vehicles. When I look at genestealers and hormagaunts and hear someone asking for run then assault on demonstrably better units that have access to assault vehicles... I mean, really?

[Lord Hanaur]

I like the new ork book.  so im not super sure what the problem is there.  But I do like it.  a lot.

 

As for the Tyranids, harder to argue.

 

That ll goes for nought in the case of Wracks.  but after looking at the site I think I know what they will do.  they will have this formation with four wrack units and four Raiders plus a talos and give it objective secured.  so you take all of that together to get your Wracks in as Obsec.

 

Thats just my guess.  Come back in seven days and tell me if Im right!

[fluger]

Do Orks make 7E sense to you? Not to me, at least imo

 

The Ork book is fine, really, it is totally fine.  The huge wailing and gnashing of teeth about the change to mob rule is just a tempest in a teapot.  It actually makes smaller units like Meganobz BETTER.  I've run numbers on these things and it actually REALLY helps orks when they are in melee.  'Ere we go is a fantastic rule as well as Waagh in it's current iteration.  No complaints about this book except the weird restriction of one special wargear per model.  

 

Tyranids? smh

 

Not a 7th ed book, but really, lots wrong here, so much so that I spent days writing up an alternate codex for funsies.  About only a few stellar units.  I gotta say that the Malanthrope helps a ton.  

 

Hoping/thinking warriors are going to get an overhaul when they do their job well enough compared to most troops in the game seems unlikely to me.

 

Hoping/thinking wracks are going to move to troops is, again imo, unlikely at best.

 

Probably true!  LOL

 

I have a Tyranid book that has several melee units that fall down because of a lack of any way to get to melee. I'd be, literally, shocked it GW thinks you need anything more than access to DE assault vehicles. When I look at genestealers and hormagaunts and hear someone asking for run then assault on demonstrably better units that have access to assault vehicles... I mean, really?

 

Genestealers really need help, hormagaunts just need to be cheaper.  

[WestRider]

 

 

Genestealers really need help, hormagaunts just need to be cheaper. 

 

Hormagaunts could be OK at their current base cost if the biomorphs were cheaper. If they were 8 Points fully kitted out, that'd be a different story.

 

Genestealers...yeah, need rather more extensive help.

[galahad911]

 

Do Orks make 7E sense to you? Not to me, at least imo

 

The Ork book is fine, really, it is totally fine.  The huge wailing and gnashing of teeth about the change to mob rule is just a tempest in a teapot.  It actually makes smaller units like Meganobz BETTER.  I've run numbers on these things and it actually REALLY helps orks when they are in melee.  'Ere we go is a fantastic rule as well as Waagh in it's current iteration.  No complaints about this book except the weird restriction of one special wargear per model.  

 

Tyranids? smh

 

Not a 7th ed book, but really, lots wrong here, so much so that I spent days writing up an alternate codex for funsies.  About only a few stellar units.  I gotta say that the Malanthrope helps a ton.  

 

Hoping/thinking warriors are going to get an overhaul when they do their job well enough compared to most troops in the game seems unlikely to me.

 

Hoping/thinking wracks are going to move to troops is, again imo, unlikely at best.

 

Probably true!  LOL

 

I have a Tyranid book that has several melee units that fall down because of a lack of any way to get to melee. I'd be, literally, shocked it GW thinks you need anything more than access to DE assault vehicles. When I look at genestealers and hormagaunts and hear someone asking for run then assault on demonstrably better units that have access to assault vehicles... I mean, really?

 

Genestealers really need help, hormagaunts just need to be cheaper.  

 

 

KFF is worse. Painboys taking HQ slots is worse. Mob rule hurts everything except for ardboys and meganobs, so worse imo. Bikers having to jink for the same cover they got before for nothing. I'm not sure how this isn't worse, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

The Tyranid book was out a couple months before the new edition and had a formation with ObSec. Trying to claim it's not a 7th ed book seems silly to me. I'm not going to say it's weaker than the one before it, but it got a ton of options taken out of it with very little added, much like the GK book. This definitely seems to be a trend to me and if I had an army with a book to come out soon I'd be more worried than hopeful at this point.

[Guest]

Given how the codexes have come out since SM, I'm not sure what would make you guys so hopeful that DE are going to end up "stronger" when the only ones getting that treatment are Imperial armies. All of the xenos post Eldar have been somewhere between bad and underwhelming. 

To be fair, most of the SM strength arguements are directed at White Scars, or one of the supplements, not the other content of that SM codex. Most of that codex is pretty balanced, with black templars being on the borderline underpowered end of that codex.

 

The MT codex, isn't overpowered. I haven't explored that AM codex much, but as opponents, the IG>AM conversion didn't really make them any stronger than they were before.

 

If talking about imperium related dataslates, GW magazine content, and digital purchase only content, I personally don't think most of that is balanced and I would be in favor of a complete ban of digital only content in both friendly games and events.

 

In regards to the imperium armies, as a whole, getting stronger, I certainly think that the descision to make them all battle brothers gave them a huge edge, especially at events which allow or encourage multiple detachments. I don't think the physically released books, themselves, give a dramatic edge (with the possible exception of WS biker armies).

 

I am not of the opinion that tyranids or orks got dramatically weaker with the new books. I do think the books changed their play style enough where the players that enjoyed their army in past, may no longer enjoy playing it the way the new edition wants to be played.

 

I will also note that I rarely see tyranid players utilize ally, fortification or LoW options, despite those being core parts of the game at present. I do question if their competitive edge would improve with one or more of those options included in their list.

[fluger]

KFF is worse. Painboys taking HQ slots is worse. Mob rule hurts everything except for ardboys and meganobs, so worse imo. Bikers having to jink for the same cover they got before for nothing. I'm not sure how this isn't worse, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I've played about 7 games with the new Ork dex and here's a few thoughts about what you wrote.

 

1.  KFF is certainly worse, it is no longer in my lists.  However, it was stupidly effective last edition, as it stands now it works as it was always intended IMO, which makes it marginally useful for certain builds.  That's fine, I hate auto-include wargear...

 

2.  What!?  Painboys taking slots is worse!?  They could ONLY go with Nobz units before.  Now they can go in a 300 strong boyz unit (green tide formation).  That's SUBSTANTIALLY better.  

 

3.  Mob rule.  This is a tempest in a teapot.  I've played with it enough to see that it is totally fine.  I laid out the math previously, but, essentially, the current mob rule is better for units that were in the 12-15 model range at the start of a melee and dropped into the 8-10 range.  It is also better for units with armor saves that are smaller, like warbikes, deffkoptas, meganobz, nobz, etc.  Also, being able to go to ground in big groups is super handy for units like lootas.  IMO, the rules are a total wash.  

 

4.  I don't play bikers, but they now have more of a melee bent to them (the whole dex does really), since jinking doesn't really prevent them from assaulting the next turn.  

 

What got better?  Simply put, 'Ere we go.  That rule is super awesome.  My orks haven't really failed a charge yet.  Incredibly good rule.  Speaking of auto-include wargear, da finkin' kap is out of this world.  I get a better than 50% chance of being able to infiltrate 3 units and my warlord.  That's sick!  For an army that often is at the mercy of my opponent's deployment due to being so bulky, even without getting closer, it helps a lot to be able to react to their deployment.  Tank bustas got WAY better and so did quite a few other units.  Frankly, the new dex is amazing.  

 

As to Nids, you're more the expert than I am, but the ob sec unit came out in a formation that came out well after the dex hit.  

[Romans832]

I will also note that I rarely see tyranid players utilize ally. I do question if their competitive edge would improve with one or more of those options included in their list.

Giggle

 

Someone hasn't read their ally charts. NO ONE allies with Nids.

Who would you like them to ally with?

[fluger]

If you are allowing come the apocalypse allies, then ANYONE can ally with nids.  
 

I really don't see any unit that would want to other than a knight.  

[Romans832]

If you are allowing come the apocalypse allies, then ANYONE can ally with nids.

I really don't see any unit that would want to other than a knight.

My bad...

 

With that in mind, who takes "Come the Apocalypse" allies?

[fluger]

Most tournaments don't even allow it, and the drawbacks are significant enough that usually the only people doing it are doing it for fluff reasons only.  

 

Best example I can think of is a genestealer cult army which can now easily be done with IG + Nids.  

[fluger]

Then again, probably easiest to just do that with Unbound since outside of genestealers, there really isn't anything else in the Nid army that would fit.  

[Lord Hanaur]

As for Dark Eldar... I wonder what the Warlord traits will be?

[pretre]

As for Dark Eldar... I wonder what the Warlord traits will be?

1) warlord gains fear

2) warlord gains soul blaze

3) warlord can choose to make first turn night fighting

4) warlord gains infiltrate

5) warlord gains adamantium will

 

That's my guess. :)

[busbina]

A knight doesn't really matter if its come the Apoc.The 3rd place Nova open list was Daemons with Knight allies.They make awesome back field. And with them away from your main host they are free to stomp around and drop pie plates.

[galahad911]

I've played about 7 games with the new Ork dex and here's a few thoughts about what you wrote.

 

1.  KFF is certainly worse, it is no longer in my lists.  However, it was stupidly effective last edition, as it stands now it works as it was always intended IMO, which makes it marginally useful for certain builds.  That's fine, I hate auto-include wargear...

 

2.  What!?  Painboys taking slots is worse!?  They could ONLY go with Nobz units before.  Now they can go in a 300 strong boyz unit (green tide formation).  That's SUBSTANTIALLY better.  

 

3.  Mob rule.  This is a tempest in a teapot.  I've played with it enough to see that it is totally fine.  I laid out the math previously, but, essentially, the current mob rule is better for units that were in the 12-15 model range at the start of a melee and dropped into the 8-10 range.  It is also better for units with armor saves that are smaller, like warbikes, deffkoptas, meganobz, nobz, etc.  Also, being able to go to ground in big groups is super handy for units like lootas.  IMO, the rules are a total wash.  

 

4.  I don't play bikers, but they now have more of a melee bent to them (the whole dex does really), since jinking doesn't really prevent them from assaulting the next turn.  

 

What got better?  Simply put, 'Ere we go.  That rule is super awesome.  My orks haven't really failed a charge yet.  Incredibly good rule.  Speaking of auto-include wargear, da finkin' kap is out of this world.  I get a better than 50% chance of being able to infiltrate 3 units and my warlord.  That's sick!  For an army that often is at the mercy of my opponent's deployment due to being so bulky, even without getting closer, it helps a lot to be able to react to their deployment.  Tank bustas got WAY better and so did quite a few other units.  Frankly, the new dex is amazing.  

 

As to Nids, you're more the expert than I am, but the ob sec unit came out in a formation that came out well after the dex hit.  

 

Like I said, we're just not going to agree on this. It is what it is.

[WestRider]

Then again, probably easiest to just do that with Unbound since outside of genestealers, there really isn't anything else in the Nid army that would fit.  

The Formations from the first Dataslate are really what you want here. Manufactorum Genestealers is better, but the BroodLord's Hunting Pack is cheaper, since it only requires 3 Broods instead of 5.

 

DeathLeaper as some sort of Super-Stealer Assassin Beast for an HQ could work as an Allied Detachment, too.