What is "average" in 40k?

[fluger]

So, I got to thinking about Lord Hanaur's position about Mandrakes being above average shooting and average melee.  That got me thinking about what "average" in those cases meant.  Hard to quantify I guess, but, to me, the simplest measure of a unit's potency is to put it up against a variety of threats in a simulation.  I think the base-line standard for a unit to be determined to be "good" in melee or shooting is if it can reasonably out shoot or out melee

 

10 Tactical Marines

 

1 Dakkafex

 

30 Guardsmen

 

when configured in 140-150 pts.  Then take basic factors into account, like if they assault through terrain.  

 

Now, this isn't perfect by any means, and it completely doesn't work for vehicles, but it's a good way of saying, "this unit is good in melee".  

 

Now, my assumption is that both units are in a total vacuum and assaults happen with no casualties being inflicted on either unit prior, which is a BIIIIG assumption I understand, but bear with me.  Also, I'm assuming every passes all their leadership tests, which is another big assumption.  Now, for a unit to be included in an army as a melee threat I think it needs to basically WTFPWN those units above in melee, because, odds are, they aren't going to arrive intact and they need to have a serious edge when they do hit home.  

 

Let's look at a few units in the 150 pt range.  21 hormagaunts with adrenal glands are 147 pts.  The main consideration is whether they are going through terrain or not, because either they are going first against all these foes, or else they are going last.  

 

Marines (no terrain):  They should drop 5 marines before they even get to swing, and then lose a few casualties.  The drop from S4 to S3 hurts, but the higher initiative means they probably finish off the marines in four rounds of combat and lose maybe 5 horms.  Clearly they do well here.

 

Marines (terrain):  Even swinging second, they should still take down 4 marines in the first round after losing 4 horms.  Takes more rounds, but they should still win.

 

Dakkafex (no terrain):  Horms kill it in 3 rounds of combat and lose 2 horms.  Massive victory for hormagaunts.  Now, this *is* predicated on all of them being in range to swing, which might be unrealistic.  

 

Dakkafex (terrain):  Same smell, horms kill it in 3 rounds, but lose 3.  

 

30 guardsmen (no terrain):  Takes 5 rounds, but the horms kill them off the guard (realistically, the guard should've broken and been run down after the first assault, but still) and lose 6.5 gaunts.

 

30 guardsmen (terrain):  Takes 8 rounds, and the horms are down to 6 left, but they still win.

 

Now, that's obviously got a lot of caveats and adendums to it, and 40k isn't played in a vacuum, but it gives one a good tool to measure potency.  The take away for the hormagaunts is that, yes, once they get into melee, they are quite capable of taking out a variety of targets.  You could, and should, rate them as "good" in melee.  

 

I've run these numbers for lots of different units for both shooting and assault and it quickly becomes apparent what units are effective in these scenarios and which are not.  

 

Suffice to say that if you plug in the mandrakes in these scenarios, they either struggle or straight up lose.  They just can't be labelled as even average and definitely not above average in either category.  

[AbusePuppy]

Are you taking Overwatch shots into account for these at all? I'm curious. I don't think it really swings anything, but it is a relevant factor.

 

When cover was 4+ and FNP was 4+, you could make more of an argument for Mandrakes I think- they typically shrugged off as many shots as Terminators against most shooting, presuming you managed to get them a Pain Token (which was the tricky part.) However, with cover less prevalent, cover saves generally weaker, more Ignores Cover weapons around, and Overwatch being a thing I think you're hard-pressed to make a good recommendation for them.

[Burk]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

[scottshoemaker]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

That's why my guesses were always short...

[Chappy]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

I just roll 2D6 and hope for the best.

[fluger]

Are you taking Overwatch shots into account for these at all? I'm curious. I don't think it really swings anything, but it is a relevant factor.

 

I could certainly do that, but I was just running pure combat, essentially, assuming that AFTER overwatch they have that many models in combat.  

 

As I stated, it's making a LOT of assumptions about things and doesn't factor in melee units ability to GET INTO combat, more so just to figure out what would happen if they did and on "equal" footing.  

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

I literally reread his post to figure out what those figures meant before I did a face palm. But seriously, 5.5? Is this including hamsters ino this average?

[KAPcom]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

@ KAPcom. Yep, add in an epic face palm at the end and that's how I felt.

[Lord Hanaur]

Mandrakes Have 30 STR 4 attacks on the charge at I 5/  So unless I'm mistaken, that's 7.5 wounds to whatever Tough 4 thing it hits (saves to be taken of course). 

 

That's an average melee unit to me.  That's not an under performing unit at all.  They are at least average on the assault and not below average by any scale i can think of.  Now, that 150 points can yield you an above average Hormagaunt unit (when it comes to assault) is cool.  That's not really an indictment because the two units are used COMPLETELY differently and Hormagaunts are not average assault units.  Your own conclusions point out that the Hormagaunts are very good at their job.  But Hormagaunts don't precede their charges with 20 STR 4 AP 4 shots!  They also don't overwatch using 20 STR 4 AP 4 shots either (you assumed no losses etc... in your examples).

 

I think labeling 21 Hormagaunts with adrenal Glands as "average" assault units is probably a bit understated.  Though they rarely GET there intact, if they do, they really are above average at their job.

 

And shooting 20 shots at BS 4, STR 4 and AP 4 is very respectable.  Now it is 15 points per model.  So on its own, an assault marine with 18" Angelus Bolters but only a 4+ save (essentially what you get from Mandrakes once the Pain token is in the unit) cannot on their own Infiltrate, are not fleet, do not have Night Vision, do not move through Cover, and do not get stealth and arent going on init 5.  Assault Marines saves are in no way invulnerable either.  Yet...  we're saying that the Assault marine is somehow better because what, a 3+ save instead? 

 

I think that the Mandrakes wil; not get a fair shake for the few remaining days of their current incarnation.  Okay fine.  But its fun to talk about.

[WestRider]

Assault Marines do also have Jump Packs, and the option to take Special Weapons and things like PowerFists. The 3+ Sv, plus the Jump Movement, really helps them actually make it to Combat. More reliably than Infiltration does, in my experience.

 

Further, Assault Marines are generally considered to be a mediocre Assault Unit at best. They're only really good at fighting things that anything even remotely competent on Assault could take on. If your argument comes down to "they're better than Assault Marines", that's a pretty serious case of damning with faint praise.

 

Finally, don't Mandrakes have to pick up a Pain Token before they get the shooting Attack? That means that either you're starting them with a Haemonculus, and thus not Infiltrating them, or they have to win a fight and wipe out a Unit (which is almost inevitably going to involve at least some casualties) before they get that option to weaken their targets before the Charge.

[Lord Hanaur]

Assault marines CAN have jump packs.  True.  hes talking Assault marines of the 150 pt Variety however.

 

Also, gettting the pain token into the unit is literally no problem.  of all the gripes about mandrakes, that is definitely the most overblown of them.  the real question really is, given they will have the token, wouldnt you love having Mandrakes?

 

I personally described them as average in combat.  I made no grandiose claims there.  Jusat that they are at least average.

[WestRider]

Who is "he" here? You're the first person to mention Assault Marines in this thread. And it is literally impossible to run them without either a Transport or Jump Packs, so ignoring those makes the comparison completely invalid. 8 Assault Marines with Jump Packs or a Rhino would be the most valid comparison that you could actually take.

 

I don't play Dark Eldar. Please outline how you're getting the Pain Token into the Unit without sacrificing Infiltrate. Because I don't see it. In my games against Dark Eldar, I've rarely seen anything pick up Pain Tokens other than by starting with a Haemonculus, because it's generally the Vehicles that are actually getting the kills.

[AbusePuppy]

I personally described them as average in combat.  I made no grandiose claims there.  Jusat that they are at least average.

 

If the Mandrakes so much as touch terrain, though, they suddenly are striking after the enemy and have to suffer the consequences of their low Toughness and Save scores- a unit of Tactical Marines kills ~2.5 of them not even counting Overwatch shots, meaning they actually will probably lose combat to them. Things that are losing combat to Tactical squads even when they have the charge is pretty mediocre performance.

[fluger]

Not sure how you get 2.5 kills, (10*.5*.666*.666*.666 (because invul and FnP) = 1.47 dead Mandrakes.  Regardless, that's pretty bad for a unit that should be doing more in melee.

 

Mandrakes do rate as winning out against MEq in combat even going through terrain, and can beat the guard if there is no terrain,but lose out if there is.  They can slowly drag the carnifex down thanks to invul saves as well.  

 

Now, this is all assuming they have FNP from a token.  That changes the metrics of this little equation because either we have to factor in the cost of a haemonculus, or we have to introduce outside forces into the simple equation, which aren't worth doing.  Suffice to say, that if we go the easiest route and just add a haemon to the unit and lose 3 mandrakes that they will fall on their faces in every situation.  

[Lord Hanaur]

and of course they;'d have the token.  This is easy to accomplish.  So look at them through that lens if you can.  Power Build:: Eldar doesn't want those guys outflanking and getting behind them, dont want them charging in round 2 and they dont like what their Baleflame does to the Dire Avengers.  No sirree.  There's a lot the unit can do and of course as alwatys with Dark eldar, Round 1 is where you can REALLY saturate th enemy choices and essentially force them to attack the lesser of nine evils.  So...

 

The new codex is already rolling forward and this convo wont mean anything quite soon.  I can only hope they dipped the points JUST a tad (maybe make them 13 points each or something like that) because i think if they did, a lot of people would be using them no matter their perceived faults.  

 

I own 30 and have used them a few times early on before I decided to get crazy with my Court of the Archon concept but they did their jobs admirably in my original build.  held their own in combat against normal units nd REALLY shot the you-know-what out of some units.

[fluger]

and of course they;'d have the token.  This is easy to accomplish.  

 

Serious question, "How?"  

[Lord Hanaur]

Serious question, "How?"  

Raider moves up 6 inches, haemonculus drops out 6", plus whatever turning radius shenanigans you can pull.  You have to keep in mind that infiltrating them, with their range, means they are probably only 6-12" ahead of the rest of the force.  So I am mystified as to why this seems difficult to do.  It's a fair given that you can find a reason for the Raider to be wanting to move forward, given that it's a transport!  Fact is you can jump multiple Haemonculus into several units all at once if there was enough need for it.

[fluger]

I guess?  Yes, this is certainly possible, but then the arithmetic of what they cost goes up by at least the cost of the haemonculus and potentially the raider.  I just feel like there's a lot of moving pieces to get them a token, and it isn't so much of an upgrade that we should be that excited about it.  Frankly, I'd rather get that token onto wyches or warriors or something like that.  

 

Anyway, this is all going to be purely academic in a few weeks.  

[AbusePuppy]

Not sure how you get 2.5 kills, (10*.5*.666*.666*.666 (because invul and FnP) = 1.47 dead Mandrakes.  Regardless, that's pretty bad for a unit that should be doing more in melee.

 

Sergeant has three attacks, not one, and I was not assuming FNP because despite what you say, it really isn't that easy to get a token on them. (Amongst other things, it means you're taking it away from another unit that probably needs it more.) Disembarking him from a Raider is entirely dependent on where the enemy deploys (and hence where you need/want to be putting the Mandrakes) and thus not really reliable at all. It also presumes the enemy doesn't shoot down your transport turn 1, which is often not terribly likely for DE.

[fluger]

Ahh, I'm running this with just a normal sarge, not vet sarge.  Only 1 attack.  Also, I wasn't saying it was easy.  

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, I just went with the vet sarge because it makes the calculations easier. The extra one attack doesn't actually swing the numbers much.

[Steel Angel]

Normally I would say about 5.5 inches as that is what the studies say...but being gamers, i would bet about 4 inches in truth.

 

But gamers probably say 10 inches when people ask.

 

 

I like the metric system the bigger number makes me feel better.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I just roll 2D6 and hope for the best.

[Guest]

Ahh, I'm running this with just a normal sarge, not vet sarge.  Only 1 attack.  Also, I wasn't saying it was easy.  

No BP+CCW? 2 attacks on a basic sarge is pretty easy to attain.

 

In regards to current DE in assault, they do often have higher or equal initiative on everything. This means higher odds to escape after losing an assault and the ability to swing first. DE do have access to characters which add assault grenades to the entire unit, even if very expensive and vulnerable to perscision shots.

 

FNP does matter against marines and AM in assault, and is attainable by most DE units via the destruction of transports and other weak units.

 

DE often have access to very large squads and cheap ICs. Although I don't ever see it, I often wonder how horde DE would fair.