Scout Shenanigans - Rules Question

[pretre]

Can an independent character leave a unit he was in during the consolodation phase after an assault?

no.

[pretre]

Btw, not trying to be 'that guy'   .   I always worry that I come off like a tool when I debate with folks.  Wanted to set my tone   .

 

While there is no specific language for how the TWC have to deploy (in coherency or not) the IC would have to be within 2" of at least one of them, per p.100.  There is no reference to phase or type of movement (or redeployment), only the restriction that they maintain coherency with the unit they are 'in'.  

 

A rule that says it can't (be outside of 2") cannot be ignored by one that is vague on weather or not it can (be outside of 2"). Imho of corse. 

 

Also, the scout rule itself has the word move in it.  So one could argue that redeployment is a movement, bound by all the rules associated with it. 

 

I'm off to paint some bikes   

Okay, addressing this more specifically. Page 100 doesn't apply during redeployment. The only use of the word move in scout is to indicate that they can leave the deployment zone. Other than that, it is clear that it follows the rules for deployment.

"If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker

or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6"

of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead

redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position. During this

redeployment, Scouts can move outside the owning player’s deployment zone,

but must remain more than 12" away from any enemy unit. A unit that makes

a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. A unit cannotembark or disembark as part of a Scout redeployment."

[pretre]

During the movement phase they do.

 

:D

I agree that this seems to be the majority opinion so far.

 

That being said, it looks mostly legal, (Scout in two different directions out of coherency) since coherency only applies to movement. The IC would be out of coherency but still part of the unit and would not be able to leave the unit until the first movement phase where he would break off and join someone else.

[WestRider]

Okay, addressing this more specifically. Page 100 doesn't apply during redeployment. The only use of the word move in scout is to indicate that they can leave the deployment zone. Other than that, it is clear that it follows the rules for deployment.

"If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker

or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6"

of its current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead

redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position. During this

redeployment, Scouts can move outside the owning player’s deployment zone,

but must remain more than 12" away from any enemy unit. A unit that makes

a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. A unit cannotembark or disembark as part of a Scout redeployment."

The question then becomes "does Redeployment count as Deployment, and thus still require the IC to be within 2?"

[pretre]

Well, I don't think so.

 

The IC is not required to be within 2" during deployment. He chooses to do that to join the unit.

 

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being
deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your
opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

When you redeploy, you are deploying again. So this time, I choose to deploy the TWC 12" away and deploy the Inquisitor within 2" of this other unit. I have deployed the units again, my only restriction is how far away I can do so.

[DisruptiveConduct]

Pretre. Are you trolling or is this something you actually want to do in a game?

[Psilence]

Good morning 

I'll concede that the 'move' in scout was a stretch.  :P  

Why would p.100 not apply to redeployment?  It doesn't list any limitations, and would apply to the entire game (and pre game) once an IC had joined a unit.

 

 

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being

deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your
opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

When you redeploy, you are deploying again. So this time, I choose to deploy the TWC 12" away and deploy the Inquisitor within 2" of this other unit.

 

 

Again there is language that requires an IC to be in coherency with a unit he is part of in deployment (or redeployment) phase, before the game has begun.  Even if you 'could' deploy the TWC with 24" between each TWC model (12" redeploy both directions) the inq would have to be in coherency (2") of one of them.

 

Also, moving within 2" of a second unit would not be possible, until the movement phase of the controlling player.

[generalripphook]

no.

Then I would say by that reasoning an IC can only leave coherentcy in the actual movemement phase.

[pretre]

Agreed that during initial deployment, the IC would need to be within 2" of a TWC.

 

During redeployment though, you're not moving within 2" of a second unit, you are redeploying. Redeployment is like deployment, except Re (meaning done again). So this time, instead of putting him within 2" of the TWC, I put him within 2" of another unit. It isn't moving, it is deploying again with different restrictions on where you can do it.

[pretre]

Pretre. Are you trolling or is this something you actually want to do in a game?

This is something that I wanted to do in a game. I'm guessing I won't considering there's sufficient doubt about the tactic.

[pretre]

Then I would say by that reasoning an iF can only leave coherentcy in the actual movemement phase.

That's different. That's 'during the game' and during a phase. Deployment has rules for how to deploy that allow a IC to do certain things (I've posted them).

[VonVilkee]

I agree that this seems to be the majority opinion so far.

 

That being said, it looks mostly legal, (Scout in two different directions out of coherency) since coherency only applies to movement. The IC would be out of coherency but still part of the unit and would not be able to leave the unit until the first movement phase where he would break off and join someone else.

I'd still maintain that the character would no longer be part of the squad as you are "deploying again" which means you would recheck the character deployed with unit clause for what unit he is with.

 

Edit the only issue I had was the idea of the twc losing scout as the character deploys no longer joined to the unit. However pretre filled in that the book says until the next movement phase. If I was trolling i'd be saying they could assault as they no longer have scout when the assault phase rolls around so none of the rules stipulations would apply... :)

[pretre]

lol that would be excellent. However, even if that were true, the scout rule says that people who redeployed with scout can't assault. Not people with the scout rule.

[VonVilkee]

lol that would be excellent. However, even if that were true, the scout rule says that people who redeployed with scout can't assault. Not people with the scout rule.

They don't have scout why are you looking at the scout rule! :P

 

/troll

[Brother Glacius]

I don't see how you justify that redeployment does not need to follow the same rules as deployment. In order for the TWC to redeploy, they must have the scout rule, in order for them to have the scout rule, the IC must be part of the unit. So now you are redeploying the unit, which is still a deployment, and thus has to follow the rules of deployment..which include IC characters that are a part of it, must be within coherency.

 

This is just the worst type of rules lawyering that drives people away from playing. I don't say that as a reflection on your character Pretre. But this type of "shenanigans" makes me want to walk away from the table. The game is fun, why the need to twist things?

[pretre]

Responses:

1) The unit getting (and keeping) the scout rule themselves (and not from the presence of the IC after the book is used) is not in contention. The rules give him and the unit the rule. So if there is a legal way for him to leave the unit during deployment, they would keep it.

2) The deployment rules only say that an IC has to have coherency to join a unit. They are silent on redeployment, which is the question here.

3) Theoretical rules discussions are an important part of the game. Would you rather discuss it on the internet or be surprised when it happens at the table? Furthermore, I have clearly said that I don't intend to use this tactic in a game based on the responses I have received. The only way I would use it is if my opponent said, without prompting, that they saw this thread, agreed 100% with me and thought that I should try it out. As I expect that won't happen, I won't be using it.

4) I am not twisting anything. I am exploring a rules question that I had.

5) This really isn't about the 12" move. It is clear that they don't get a 12" move because of the presence of an infantry model. And no, there is no way to give an inquisitor a 12" move.

[Brother Glacius]

I didn't label you as anything, I even specifically stated it was not a reflection on your character. The question itself is, in my opinion, an example of bad rules lawyering.

 

The word "redeploy" is literally "deploy again". So I don't see how you are trying to say that it carries a different set of rules with it. Your argument so far comes down to the fact that an "re" is at the front of "deployment" and thus the deployment rules no longer apply.

 

I also edited my post above as I had incorrectly referenced movement which actually plays no part in this discussion. Sorry for my confusion on that point.

 

So my question to you then is this, do you really think the designers intended for the term "redeployment" to have its own set of rules separate from "deployment"?

[pretre]

Okay, I withdraw my comment on that and edited appropriately.

 

No, I specifically think that redeployment works the exact same way as deployment and that's the crux of my argument. During redeployment, you get to make the exact same actions and choices that you do during deployment (with only the no (dis)embarking and distance from enemy differences listed in the Scout special rule).

 

So:

 

Deployment

1) I get to deploy my TWC anywhere in my deployment zone. I deploy my TWC in my deployment zone.

2) I get to deploy my IC anywhere in my deployment zone. If he's within 2" of a unit, he joins that unit. I deploy my IC within 2" of my TWC. He joins the TWC.

 

Redeployment

1) I get to deploy my TWC anywhere outside of 12" of an enemy model and up to 6" from their current deployed position. I deploy my TWC outside of 12" of an enemy model and within 6" of their current position.

2) I get to deploy my IC anywhere outside of 12" of an enemy model and up to 6" from his current deployed position. I deploy my IC within 2" of my Long Fangs which is less than 6" from his current position and not within 12" of an enemy model. He joins the Long Fangs. He doesn't leave the TWC; he is simply no longer deployed with them. He is now deployed with my long fangs.

[fluger]

I think a better way to phrase this question would be, 

 

"Can a scout move allow an IC to redeploy with a new unit?"

[pretre]

I think a better way to phrase this question would be, 

 

"Can a scout move allow an IC to redeploy with a new unit?"

That is a very good point!

 

Or:

 

Can the redeployment granted by scout be used to allow an IC to redeploy to with a new unit?

[VonVilkee]

And btw the book thing the inquisitor has is special. It is pass a ld test and the inquisitor plus his unit gain scout. This turned me around somewhat on the intention. Inquisitors are always sending others to die for them!

[Brother Glacius]

I have to go back to the literal meaning. If you are deploying the unit again, and the IC is part of the unit, that implies that he must stay with them. Basically, since you deployed him with the unit the first time, he must deploy with them when redoing it. Redoing the deployment offers no rule to remove him.

[pretre]

And btw the book thing the inquisitor has is special. It is pass a ld test and the inquisitor plus his unit gain scout. This turned me around somewhat on the intention. Inquisitors are always sending others to die for them!

Exactly! Although in my specific case, I am using counts-as for my Inquisitor and representing him as a hardened wolf scout working with my force (same armor save, bolt pistol and chainsword, etc).

[pretre]

I have to go back to the literal meaning. If you are deploying the unit again, and the IC is part of the unit, that implies that he must stay with them. Basically, since you deployed him with the unit the first time, he must deploy with them when redoing it. Redoing the deployment offers no rule to remove him.

But you're not redeploying the unit. You're redeploying each model.

 

"If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of its current position." Emphasis mine.

 

That means you can redeploy each model within 6" of its current position. For me, that means that you literally re-deploy. You deploy them again within 6" of their current position.

[DisruptiveConduct]

Okay. I see it better now that the question is restated.

 

When dealing with a permissive rule set, one must ask themselves

 

"Where does it say I CAN do this?"

 

You have found good rules to justify everything but the IC leaving the unit it was joined to before the redeployment.