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Swedish Comp?


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So just currious on where to find it and if there is there any chances of it being tested out. (Of course not during a league or anything, but what about just for fun?)

 

Also I assume this includes Special Characters but what else does it cover?

 

It seems that some players at the OFCC are having a hard time with building a OFCC list and do you think this, or something similar, could solve this? It would make list building easier and it would give players a new way at looking at list building.

 

Thoughts?

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It will be the way next year…...

Exactly, that's why I want to know more and play it before next year. And hopefully see a change in how we look at armies.

 

(I feel my Dark Elves come from a powerful book but I have been avoiding the blenders and hero filled cav units to where I play more 'freindly' lists.)

 

If the meta heads that way my O&G army is going to hit the table for a great Waaagh!

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So just currious on where to find it and if there is there any chances of it being tested out. (Of course not during a league or anything, but what about just for fun?)

 

Also I assume this includes Special Characters but what else does it cover?

 

It seems that some players at the OFCC are having a hard time with building a OFCC list and do you think this, or something similar, could solve this? It would make list building easier and it would give players a new way at looking at list building.

 

Thoughts?

You would find it here:  http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=102988

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You can test it with any game you play. Just make note of the exact VPs at the end of the game, and ask for a copy of your opponents list. Then you can calculate the comp differential between the two armies, and see what the VP result would have been under Swedish comp. It's not perfect, but it's the best fixed comp system I've seen. 

 

The great thing about it is that it's fluid, and gets revised (and perfected) on a regular basis, as the result of a LOT of feedback from tournament play. If there's anything GW game fans have shown, it's that if they get hold of a system, they end up with with a much better product than what GW originally had. Blood Bowl (and to a lesser extent, Mordheim) is a perfect example. The current version of the BB living rulebook is so tight and well-regarded, it makes me wish that GW turned everything over to the fans.

 

On a side note, we're using Swedish for the 'Ham Slamwich in November. Come on up, play, relax, drink, and give it a good run to see what you think!

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Well very interested to try it out sometime. May even see units nobody ever brings.

 

Might even try to calculate a game with this at OFCC to see what players are bringing now. Have a feeling already that their lists have a lower rating than they would figure. Heck my list is probably a lower rating than I would assume.

 

I do understand that the numbers would be off due to the 2800 point level, but by how much?

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Swedish comp rewards less used builds, but be careful because it still punishes: 

Heavy magic

unit redundancy

extremely large unit sizes.

 

So, if you're running an off the wall build, and your score is lower than you would expect in swedish, look at the reasons why and mess around with the build a bit .

 

Swedish works in general between 2 and 3K as long as the armies are the same size with the following major exception:

Many armies have ballistics skill shooting caps or cumulative war machine penalties which go up exponentially. Because of these soft caps, which affect shooting as a whole, rather than taxing individual units, If you play at 2k instead of 2.4k, these penalties will feel light, and shooting armies will be comparatively strong. If you play at 3K the soft shooting caps will feel more onerous than intended, and shooting armies will be comparatively weak.

 

There are a couple other similar cumulative affects that distort the effectiveness of the costs when you go significantly away from the designed point total, such as multiple fliers. In general, it tends to work best close to the design range, I'd be comfortable with it between about 2.2k and 2.8k at the outsides from a balance perspective. Other point levels it works, but not as well.

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Interestingly I just put my OFCC Skaven army through this and got 10.5 (Average army power), but it did not have the big monsters from the assorted books, so no idea the penalty on my broodhorror if there is any.

 

Took one of the Chaos Dwarf armies listed for OFCC through the same comp and got a 3.8.

 

So yeah I think standard comp (which the team that led this year's OFCC did try to do, but was rejected via outcries by too many) would be a good idea to make an even playing field.

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I think the ones who will complain the most will be those who take hard lists. I've known players like them and their biggest issue is that they see the Average units as inferior and feel like their game is limited but forget that that limit is applied to their opponent. They feel more comfortable playing a list that gives them an advantage.

 

I know this might sound condescending but if you listen to them and watch them it is obvious.

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I think the ones who will complain the most will be those who take hard lists. I've known players like them and their biggest issue is that they see the Average units as inferior and feel like their game is limited but forget that that limit is applied to their opponent. They feel more comfortable playing a list that gives them an advantage.

 

I know this might sound condescending but if you listen to them and watch them it is obvious.

Think you nailed it ML.  Though some players it is the only game they understand (power gaming) based off their local gaming community or gaming group.  I've seen those before in all games and game types.

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The cool thing about is, save for events with minimum comp scores (which I think are a good idea), you can take a harder list if you want, you'll just be starting at a disadvantage against softer armies. Swedish really rewards strong players with moderate to weak armies over weaker players with powerful armies.

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I don't think people who play hard lists will mind.  its going to add the dynamic that they want the most which is maximization.  knowing that theres a hard cap at a level 10 they can maximize against that number and I think they will be satisfied.  set the cap at 5, or 15, as long as they can math out a path to victory I think they will enjoy it much more than an arbitrary grading system where there lists get rejected.  probably the best way I can think of to allow that faction to get its money's worth while protecting the rest of us who failed math and just pick by color.

 

they also get special characters now.  I don't see much of a reason to complain for those who like to bring a beating.

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It's designed for 2400 pt games. So don't use it for point values far off that

 

Yeah, but you can always just adjust the starting value up from 300 accordingly. A few builds will get over-comped, but that's not the end of the world. Most of those lists aren't fun to play against anyways :P

 

I think the ones who will complain the most will be those who take hard lists. I've known players like them and their biggest issue is that they see the Average units as inferior and feel like their game is limited but forget that that limit is applied to their opponent. They feel more comfortable playing a list that gives them an advantage.

 

I know this might sound condescending but if you listen to them and watch them it is obvious.

Some people also just prefer no-holds-barred play. My army comps out at a respectable 9.9 on Swedish, but I'd still rather play against uncomped armies. I feel that mine is the strongest list I can bring, once my playstyle is factored in, and I don't really want others to be handicapped just because the comp drafters think their build is "too powerful." 

 

That said, I *DO* have a problem with unoriginal builds, and to the extent that Swedish discourages that I'm all for it.

 

they also get special characters now.  I don't see much of a reason to complain for those who like to bring a beating.

I really don't get why people have such an issue with special characters? Other than a very select few exceptions they're overcosted and underpowered as a rule, and almost none of them have any protection to speak of. And the exceptions that are worth it generally are so because of how they affect the rest of the army (Epidemius for nurgle builds, Tetto for the Slann's magic phase, Throgg for core trolls, Hellebron and Alarielle because they let you turn their units into deathstars). 

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Yeah, but you can always just adjust the starting value up from 300 accordingly. A few builds will get over-comped, but that's not the end of the world. Most of those lists aren't fun to play against anyways :P

 

It's definitely easier to go up and down. Going up accidentally overcomps, while going down accidentally undercomps, which seems like more of an issue.

 

Since I'm currently playing in a different region with lots of power gamers and lots of comp I thought I'd share our experience on the discussion of how power gamers tend to react to it.

 

In our region competitive power gamers are almost universally the strongest proponents of comp. In my experience most power gamers aren't bad people, they're just looking to play a strategy game with the goal of winning. Comp just makes the strategy game more balanced.

 

 

(of course there are some exceptions to this that want to bring a DP and 3 chimeras against a bunch of spearmen, those people don't like comp, but they tend to be a vocal minority rather than a real chunk of the player base!)

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On special characters in Swedish -

 

The issue I have with special characters in swedish is that my understand is that most of the tournaments which are used to inform the swedish comp don't allow special characters, so sample size is too small for those units, and thus their comp value is more guesswork than the normal selections. Certain special characters have cumulative issues that are hard to pin down in value.

 

For example, how much of a hit should hellebron be, does it matter how many witch elves are in the largest unit? You could argue a larger witch elf unit should make her cost more, you could also argue the opposite, or that it's a non-issue, because with most armies good opponents will just redirect and force overruns on a 900 point deathstar and ignore it.

 

I'm not sure which is right, and it's hard to tell without a good number of tournament results. 

 

On the other end of the spectrum, sure Sigvald is bad, but is he that bad? What's an actual fair value for a character like that? Well, since he's a bad SC, he probably doesn't get run that much, and thus the data points just aren't there to provide an informed point cost, it's mostly guesswork.

 

That said, for the most part I think sweidsh still does a good job with special characters and I really don't mind them in that environment, as most of the good ones are taxed within what I would feel like is the right range, I'd just prefer them not in if I got to be dictator of the world. =P

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My chaos dwarf list was a whopping 11.4 I'm the bull centaur guy

 

The other chaos dwarfs all made one very big mistake when making there lists for OFCC, they took 3 or more war machines and a kadaii destroyer. Gentlemen, you know thats is not fluffy! You shoot them down and then they fight the destroyer, tsk tsk, but then again, I was told my list was too hard, no pleaing them all.

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side note, under swedish, it appears to be 100 starting score per 800 game points, I suppose at 400 points above 2400 once could just add 50 more starting points and then test what range you want for armies the fall in by making a few list.

An additive constant like that isn't going to change the comp scores save to just scale them differently. Which is fine if you just want the comp scores to be in a familiar metric, but doesn't change the fact that Swedish penalties are created with 2400 or 2500 points in mind. With that said, in my limited experience, I think Swedish does fine at 2800.

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Not quite. It all depends on where you put the cut-off. If the cut-off is a 5 on a +50 system, that'd be the same as a 5.5 on the standard comp. If you're just moving everyone's scores up and down, there will still be the same difference between them, so it won't change match-ups or VO differential (if those are used).

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I was meaning this:

 

If we leave the starting value alone (300) but increase the list size (from 2400 to 2800 let's say) then the lists will end up softer than if we were to increase the starting point (350 has been out forth). Taking into account that the lists must fall within a given range, of course.

 

Is that assessment incorrect? I am basing it on the fact that there are fewer comp points to spend in relationship to the list size.

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