Raising my first Undead Legion

[Threejacks]

OK so im now collecting up models for my first go at an Undead Legions army.

Ive been wanting to try a new Fantasy army as of late anyway,not that im burned out on OnG`s its more that im ready to try something with a different playstyle..like one that doesnt have to worry about my blocks standing around staring at each other a few times EVERY game.

 

My Army books are in transit but ive been reading up on the web about the different unit choices and fiddling with Army Builder so heres what ive collected up so far and am considering using in my first 1k list;

 

- Necromancer lvl 2..havent kitted him out yet as I want to look over the books first.

-20xZombies ..probably no standard as that seems like a waste on such a small amount for the price..certainly no musician,not sure why anyone would use one really..but yeah what do I know,heh.

-5X Hexwraiths--- cuz yeah I just want to run up to a big block of infantry and say 'LOL YOU CANT TOUCH THIS!"...well that and they are so friggen cool looking with a ghostly etheral paint job.

-5X Black Knights--stat line seems solid so ill try em out. ..The GW bundle I bought had 3 boxes of these cav units so I figured ill build at least 2 min groups of each type and see how they work.Not sure what to do about command on these guys so any suggestions would be appreciated:)

3X Varghiests---These came with the Bundle too and I read that they are pretty good being mobile and rather hard hitting.Ill try em out and see what they can do

For Tomb kings;

3X Skeleton Chariots...Cheap!,Killy! and COOL!

15(or so) Skeleton Archers

10X Skeleton warriors Hand weapon and shield...this is such a small unit not sure if its worth messing with but I understand that some units can be increased beyond their starting size?

This is all pretty close to 1k points I think.

At this point im not sure if I should go for a second Hero or maybe run the Necromancer as a Lord and pump him up.Or maybe get a catapult for some ranged support.Also doesnt VC have some units that can pop up anywere on the board?..forgot what those are called.

[Brother Glacius]

I have a few tips for undead:

 

1) zombies - fairly useless unit, especially in low point games. They suck...to get them to possibly average you need a corpse cart and a successful spell cast. Since this is fairly easy to stop, that means they suck all the time. You could use them as a large tarpit...in which you need at least 40 models to hold up a decent unit. The banner is actually nice as its one point of free CR and zombies need all they can get. Where they might get interesting is when you add a TK liche priest to the mix. They can boost zombies and add to the unit all in one spell. However, the zombies don't get the extra d6 models due to a TK spell as it only applies to invocation. Still, is probably worth looking into.

 

2) skeletons - only the VC skels can be raised above starting size and only if you have a master of undead necromancer (its an upgrade). I love the models for the vc skels, not so much for the TK, but that is up to you. A necro with the upgrade might be able to raise more TK skeletons...depends on the exact wording of the upgrade. After reading it, you can raise "skeleton warriors" above their starting size, so that does apply to TK warriors as well as VC. It does not let you raise more archers, horsemen, or chariots though.

 

As to your list, I would probably drop the skeleton warriors unless you plan on taking master of undead. I would take a LP as a second character. I think the combo of invocation and desert wind, you'll have two ways to add back wounds, plus move models around. That will be tough for opponents to stop both of them.

[Threejacks]

I have a few tips for undead:

 

1) zombies - fairly useless unit, especially in low point games. They suck...to get them to possibly average you need a corpse cart and a successful spell cast. Since this is fairly easy to stop, that means they suck all the time. You could use them as a large tarpit...in which you need at least 40 models to hold up a decent unit. The banner is actually nice as its one point of free CR and zombies need all they can get. Where they might get interesting is when you add a TK liche priest to the mix. They can boost zombies and add to the unit all in one spell. However, the zombies don't get the extra d6 models due to a TK spell as it only applies to invocation. Still, is probably worth looking into.

 

2) skeletons - only the VC skels can be raised above starting size and only if you have a master of undead necromancer (its an upgrade). I love the models for the vc skels, not so much for the TK, but that is up to you. A necro with the upgrade might be able to raise more TK skeletons...depends on the exact wording of the upgrade. After reading it, you can raise "skeleton warriors" above their starting size, so that does apply to TK warriors as well as VC. It does not let you raise more archers, horsemen, or chariots though.

 

As to your list, I would probably drop the skeleton warriors unless you plan on taking master of undead. I would take a LP as a second character. I think the combo of invocation and desert wind, you'll have two ways to add back wounds, plus move models around. That will be tough for opponents to stop both of them.

 

I was wondering about how effective the Zombies can be and yeah I was thinking the Banner was ten points but I see its only five points so basically starts paying out in the second turn of combat rather than the fourth,assuming they rarely win a combat anyway.

 

Most all of these models ive picked up with the thought in mind of summoning with other armys(first being my OnG`s) so in that case they would likely just be speed bumps anyway...I was wondering if its like the Goblins in that you need to have some large blocks to be effective with them,heh

 

Ill certainly pick up a Lich Priest now as that sounds like some interesting stuff there:)

 

Thnx for the tips!

[Threejacks]

      Kinda feeling set on my VC contribution so far and for the future on that end Im thinking a Mortis engine would be nice and maybe doing a steed mounted Vamp lord.

 

 But for the TK side of things I finally got my army book and WOW! they have some cool stuff!..friggen giant bugs and monsters emerging from the sands!..are those any good for the points?

 

 Actually I don't care, I want to build a list around that alone!...not sure if that theme would fit with End times and the VC allies thing though.

 

 I`m also thinking of going with a themed full cav list as it seems both armies are pretty solid in this area.

 

 Also I think my first addition will be a Skull cata..I see they are magical shots to boot:)

[AgentP]

Scatterpults are great......when they hit.  Don't bother with the upgrade.  

[King Mekhet]

Some thoughts:

1) I personally hate zombies. All they can do is tarpit, and even then they want to eat up a lot of power dice on Invocation...far more than I'm willing to spare on them. And if you're not raising zombies left right and centre you're not getting your points' worth out of them.

Id far rather have TK skeletons. For +1 point you get better WS, you lose ASL, you get 6+6++, and (best of all) you can take a champion. That makes this actually a halfway worthwhile unit. You can put TK/TP in them to become a decent grinding unit. You can make them a bunker for your vampire lord. Or you can just take a unit of 40+ as an anvil/tarpit, which will hold up a unit for far longer than a unit of zombies will without magic support.

If you DO want to take zombies, then be prepared to buy another 80+ of them. If not, then paint the ones you have for Raise Dead (the best spell in the Lore of Vampires by a mile).

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the poster above is dead-wrong on the Master of the Dead only raising VC skeletons above starting level. The upgrade specifies "units of skeleton warriors," which both armies have. You can't raise skeleton archers, nor any other skeleton from the TK book, but you CAN raise the 4 point skeleton warriors.

2) Black Knights are worthless except as a delivery system for a vampire lord. Without him they're just really overpriced Grave Guard with weapons that only work on the turn they charge.

3) Not a huge fan of hex wraiths. They're great against new opponents, but veterans know better than to come to the table without magic missiles / attacks for dealing with ethereals. They're a bit more mobile if your general is mounted on a zombie dragon or BK bus (i.e. is mobile enough to catch up and has lots of room in his march bubble).

4) skeleton warriors need 40+ models. Pick up a few boxes of Wargames Factory skeletons to round out the difference. They're cheap as chips and amazing.

5) direwolves are amazing chaff. Pick up 10-15.

6) Vargheists are best run in units of 4 or 6, and always 2 ranks deep to take advantage of monstrous ranks. Vargheists are easily my favourite unit in the whole book, as they really reward smart play. They generally earn me 2-3 times their points back against 80% of matchups (they don't like skinks/WE, or armies with lots of armour). However, if you try to use them like any old combat block you'll find that they're way too fragile and expensive for what you get out of them.

7) Get a terrorgheist and a vampire lord. Every armybook has an auto-include or two, and these are the VC ones. Vampire Lord gets red fury + quickblood + ogre blade, and whatever else you feel like kitting him out with. I strongly recommend a 4++ ward save.

[MexicanNinja]

I strongly disagree with brother glacius and king mekhet about zombies.  Zombies are far from useless.  They make a great bunker for your caster as you don't care if you kill them from miscasts and they are so flipping cheap for a unit to stick behind your army and do nothing.

 

A scorpion isn't a bad choice.  A unit of 3 necropolis knights would be a nice addition.  It will force your opponent to chose between shooting/magicing them or hte vargeists.

 

Black knights are not worthless without a vampire, that's just become the norm.  I used to run them as a solo unit of 5 for a supporting unit.  Most people won't bother with them if there's no character in them.

[Threejacks]

Dire wolves do interest me a lot but wouldn't Skeleton cav archers or even just Skeleton cav be a bit better choice?

 

Having been able to see more of the TK book I can see that Skellies are way better than Zombies and I have about 35 Skellie warriors now so ill probably just switch to a big block of those for starts:)

[Brother Glacius]

Did any of you actually read what I posted? or just skimmed it? Sheesh.

[Talapas]

Did any of you actually read what I posted? or just skimmed it? Sheesh.

Not fully reading posts, yet another Ordo tradition.

[MexicanNinja]

Did any of you actually read what I posted? or just skimmed it? Sheesh.

Yes I did, and I saw no mention of zombies being used as a bunker for a necromancer.  You mentioned them as a tarpit and that they really sucked and you needed at least 40 with a corpse cart.  My counter statement was that a unit of 20 behind your army which houses a necromancer is perfect for a wizard bunker.

[Threejacks]

  Built so far:

 

25- Zombies ( 5 fillers,20 models,2 painted as baseline)

 

Mounted Lich Priest

 

Foot Lich Priest

 

Mastermancer done and painted

 

5-Hexwraiths

 

18-Skeleton Archers..likely my next painting will be these.

 

 Started on the Chariots...

 

 Now as far as working my list ive got some questions for you veteran VC/TK players out there...

 

   I haven't decided on my leadership yet at these low point levels...seeing as most all of my core will likely be undead do I really need high leadership army wide?.,,I mean this is such a radical change from OnG`s as it doesn't look like I need to worry much about blocks of troops running off the board,they will just fall apart!  ...well I can always try to summon reinforcements back into the unit of course.

 

  For my fluff reasons I really want to run a Tomb Prince as the army general and with Ld 9 I think that would put my leadership worries to rest,but I also want to have access to TK and VC specific magic as I learn the army..I want to at least try them out.I`m thinking of adding a Vamp or Necromancer and a Lich Priest,possibly mounting one of them on a horse.Also with what seems like a lack of overall demand for leadership tests should I need to still have a BSB model?..Tomb Herald perhaps if so?

 

 On another note I see that there are some "scream" units in the VC army and they really interest me..those and the spell effect of the Casket of Souls from the TK`s look as though an army could be built around that..not sure if I want that in my fluff as yet but I do plan to at least run a Mortis engine once the point levels are appropriate...do those scream effects use the target unit leadership only?..or would the target unit be able to use the Generals IP?...im thinking not since its not actually a leadership test..

 

 

 Thnx:)

[Drak]

scream lists are indeed doable but you will make NO friends in doing so. funny how people actually like a chance to respond to their imminent death and screams don't provide this opportunity.

 

that being said if your opponent agrees to it you should try it out.

[MexicanNinja]

I'd test out a scream list.  In fact, I've faced them many times and other than the terrorgheist, it's not that overwhelming

[Drak]

completely agree MN banshees, Mortis engines, and the sword are all "ok". but being able to field a whole host of screaming death (properly supported by leadership modifiers) would make for a fun R/S/P game.

[MexicanNinja]

completely agree MN banshees, Mortis engines, and the sword are all "ok". but being able to field a whole host of screaming death (properly supported by leadership modifiers) would make for a fun R/S/P game.

Not really because you are hoping for dice rolls to be high.  If you look at the current meta, most armies pack 8+ LD units/models.  You're needing high rolls to get the most from them.  Sure, there are games when the dice will be hot but what about when they aren't?  The army is banking on the screams to be effective, if they aren't then it's wasted points IMO.

[Threejacks]

Ill pass on the Scream stuff..seems more for a straight VC list thing and ill be more TK than VC`s,plus I really want the Mortis engine for the growing regen thing.

 

Ive got 35 Skeleton warriors to complete assembling so Ill be doing a Tomb Prince for the General bunkered within them and probably plop the Lich Priest in there too,that will be my base.

[Threejacks]

 OK first list is ready for this weeks Latrine runs

 

  Army General -Tomb Prince- Gold Sigil Sword ,Enchanted Shield.(In Skeleton Warrior bunker)

 

  Mastermancer lvl 3-Channeling staff ( In with either Skeleton Warrior bunker or with Archers)

 

 

   Core-

 

   31 Skeleton Warriors FC

 

   3 Skeleton Chariots w/Standard

 

  18 Skeleton Archers w/Standard

 

  10 Dire Wolves

 

 Special-

 

 5 Hexwraiths

 

 3 Vargheists

 

 Im sure its a pretty weak list but Im just wanting to get some models on the table and see how the army plays out

 

 Ive also got 25 Zombies built and ready for summoning should I get that spell...as well as an extra 5 skellies to add to the bunker if needed.I know I need to get tons more of those core models as I work my way to 2500-2800 army size.

 

 Im going to run the Necro first to see how the Vamp magic works out..I figured I would probably run Lore of Death with a LP with I can afford adding him in there points wise.

 

 I figure Ill probably be adding a Skullapult next then maybe try another linebreaker block like Black Knights maybe with a Mounted Vamp in there.

 

  I also want to start using some of the TK contructs as well as some of their units that can pop out of the ground.

[Drak]

you'll need master of the dead upgrade to raise extra skellies to units.

[Threejacks]

you'll need master of the dead upgrade to raise extra skellies to units.

  Yeah,glad you mentioned that as I was thinking about that yesterday but forgot about paying for it on him..

 

I guess I could just reduce the Warrriors by 4 and add that in.I could probably count on summoning those back and more on the first success.

[Threejacks]

  Had a great first game against Murphy`s Orcs:)

 

  Learned a lot about the army and I really liked how it played,first off not having to worry about leadership or animosity is very nice!

 

   I can see why Vampire Magic is considered one of the best lore`s out there,I plan to stick with that and probably add in TK lore then probably Lore of Death.Not sure about Lore of Undeath though..seems that one would require a much different list build,perhaps fun to try but not until Ive got a lot more models to put down,heh.

 

  I also need to be more aggressive with my flankers,the Dire Wolves are OK..but really don't fill the fast cav slot but I tried to use them that way.They are cheap and all but with no defence at all I don't see them being much more than a redirector or speed bump.I also didn't play my Hexwraiths that well,,too timid as im still not well versed in figuring Combat res plus without being able to march I can see I really need to plan my moves ahead to get them into a harassing rear area position.Or I can try to keep them on a flank in support of the main group.

 

 The Varghiests are a keeper for sure..I Really like flying units!.I would also like to try some EBtS units from the TK book,love the fluff on that.

 

  Finally the one thing that really impressed me was having the Tomb Prince in block of Skellie warriors,having the unit wide WS 5 was sweet!.I want to expand on this as my main bunker with possibly some magic buffs from the TK lore eventually.I can see a direction for me on this kind of build with using a Corps cart,Mortis engine,archer block for a caster or two..perhaps a Skull cata or two behind the block then use Black Knights maybe with a Vamp hero leading a hammer group ,throw in some EBtS units for back field action.This way I can have some mobility on the flanks and play static in the middle or slowly move forward.

 

 At this point I will probably build the Corps cart I have and add that in.Im probably going to pull the Dire Wolves and add in some spirit hosts too.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well remember that your fast cav can march if they start in your general's inspiration bubble. And yes, that skellie block was a fantastic anvil.

 

Couple pointers though. One, have your Necromancer in a small bunker and not in the anvil unit. Two, you now need a hammer unit that can counter charge and give you the combat res you need to break the enemy. Redirectors are pretty much what the dogs do though they can not flee from a charge. Also make sure your prince has good armor save and maybe a ward save if he is going to get into it.

 

What you should do is use the skellie unit to move forward with your prince to draw in your opponent. When he charges lock him down than counter charge with the Vargheist into the flank. They make a fantastic hammer and being on the flank will prevent them from receiving many attacks and with the characters lockdown by the previous round of combat they can not make way to the Vargheist.

 

Just my thought. And I can show you a little on how to do it. (Learned from experience of having it done to me. )

[MexicanNinja]

I would suggest a bunker of 10 skeleton archers for a bunker.  You could also take a second unit of archers so that your caster has another unit to jump into once the first one starts to take some casaulties.

 

As for the hammer, here are a couple of suggestions (just remember most of these aren't going to happen at this points level):

 

1) Necropolis Knights- These are some of the scariest things in the game.  They dish out a ton of hurt poison and killing blow attacks?  Uh, yes please.  If you are looking for just a small counter charger for CR, I would suggest 2 units of either 3 or 4 with no upgrades.  If you want these things to really get after it with your opponent, I'd suggest a unit of either 6 or 8.

 

2) If you need to, use your varghiests as the hammer.  Those things dish out a ton of damage and if they hit something in the flank, they shouldn't take much damage in return.  You could screen them behind your bunkers to get the additional -2 for hard cover and then just move them up to support.  At higher point games, 3 vargheists struggle to get across the table at full strength.

 

3) A kitted out blender vampire lord will counter the CR gained from your enemy in that skeleton unit.  Heck, if I were going with a skeleton anvil I would have the following in it to support your tomb prince:

 

     a. Blender vampire lord (make his as killy and survivable as possible).  He'll kill a ton of models and coutner the CR gained by your opponent.

     b. Wight King with armour of destiny.  You could send him into challenges and he's very survivable.

 

With the addition of these two characters, you can keep your tomb prince in the back rank (until the unit champion is dead) as he is the weakest character in the unit.  What this does for you is the following:

 

     a.  Your opponents has to direct attacks and the wight king and vampire lord.  If they want to kill the tomb prince they'll have to direct attacks at the unit champion to force your tomb prince to the front rank.  However, in most cases, you are going to have more CR than your opponent because of the vampire lord killing a ton of models and the wight king is a T5 W3 hero (with armour of destiny you get the 4+ ward) and he also packs killing blow which could be directed at your opponents characters.

 

4) A vargulf would fit the bill for a suppor charger against many things.  It's a decent model for its points cost.  I had great success with the one I ran in my army.

 

5) A bone giant.  You almost never want to get this thing into a solo fight.  However, toss it at a flank for a supporting charge and it will survive.

 

 

Again, these are just my thoughts, ideas, and suggestions.  I have no idea how you are wanting to run your army or what units/models you want to use and don't want to use.

[Threejacks]

  I hear ya on the Archers and plan to try using those as my caster bunker.Arrows of Asaph are totally boss..place the archers behind your line hit on 5`s ,even if they are long range..still hittin on 5`s...fast cav moving in on ya..still hitting them on 5`s...I love that especially after playing gobo archers with their puny short bows.Actually I would imagine that most armys archers(excepting the elves of course) spend most games trying to hit on 6`s .

 

 

  Yes on the Necropolis Knights,as the points increase I want to run some of them for sure,they will be popping out of the ground too!

 

 

 Ive been reading up on blender Vamps as well..yeah I would like to kit one out like that but for my fluff I really want to try for my main Vamp block to be mounted on Black Knights though I can see that it would certainly be effective to put one in with the Skeleton blob too.

 

Were do I get the dataslate for the Bone Giant?..is that Forgeworld?

[MexicanNinja]

The bone giant is in the tomb kings army book.