Da Boyz Return

[Threejacks]

Perhaps they should be revisited when the 50% Lords/Hero`s is more accepted?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Perhaps they should be revisited when the 50% Lords/Hero`s is more accepted?

Well that's the thing too. The O&G army is almost designed with taking special characters in mind. Leadership is the biggest issue with O&G and a lot of the SC have leadership bonuses or a Leadership 10 to balance it. Almost as if they had a 7th ed mind set still lingering somewhat.

 

I am going to keep at the O&G but it is very sobering to look at them and see their issues vs strengths.  

[MexicanNinja]

I know I had really really bad dice that night but I still realized the flaw with O&G armies. Like in Blood Bowl they are not great at anything but do well enough in most areas. So they have some decent melee units but get slaughtered by melee oriented armies. Their shooting phase is decent and has a chance to do some real damage but against shooting armies they lack the reliability and speed other armies have.

 

So they're a middle of the road army that has to count on random shenanigans to come out on top.

Again, I am going to disagree.  An army with a horde of savage orcs and a horde of black orcs can do wonders.  Don't forget about a horde of trolls either.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ok so I was looking up some ideas and while looking up different tactics on Wolf Chariots, which I love, something obvious was brought to my attention. 3D6+3 str5 Impact hits. The Wolf Chariots can be taken in a unit of 3 and those impact hits will go a long way.

 

Has anyone seen this on the table yet?

[HeroZero]

Yes. It's great. Once. You smash in! You do hits! You get bogged into steadfast. You lose combat next run and run. You vow never to run them again.

 

Wolf chariots should be solo and hunt chaff with them.

 

Pump wagons on the other hand...

[rudra34]

They are great in threes...on paper.  They are great solo drops, as high-movement chariots they can help to clear flanks of those annoying little chaff units.  

 

The main danger when you have three of them is the high likely-hood of panic.  Pop one of them and the other two will likely run away.  Singles can be kept away from friendly units which might cause panic, and are free to work their magic or die horribly.

[HeroZero]

Also units of chariots lose unlimited wheels. That's a deal breaker right there.

[MexicanNinja]

Honestly, I wouldn't even waste your time with wolf chariots.  I don't think they are worth taking.  Just stick to wolf riders.  Your goal should be hitting shoot them with rock lobbas and doom divers, re-diret with the riders, and smash face with a horde or two.  You can also field cheap bunkers of 20 gobos for your wizards to hide in.

[HeroZero]

Although double horde OnG w/trolls is THE netlist... It is the netlist for a reason.

 

A pretty typical netlist ONG looks A Lot like

 

Savage orc shaman

Lvl 4, fencers blades, shrunken head

 

Black Orc BSB

4+ ward save

 

NG Goblin mage

Lvl 2, scroll

 

NG goblin mage

NG goblin mage

 

40-50 Savage orc Biguns , FC

4x wolf Riders

2 x 20 NG archers, 3 fanatics, FC

40 Black Orcs, FC

8 trolls

2 spear Chukka

2 mangler squigs

2 rock lobba

2 doom diver.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well I have seen that list before but my current issue is the Savages. I don't have 40 anymore and their Swedish Comp is brutal so I am not sure I want to replace the 20 or so. Also the whole Savage Orc look is not my thing even though they are cool models. I like the look of the vanilla orcs more.

 

I already have another Doom Diver in mind (can't misfire both that often.) and I am currently looking through my box of green goodies to see what I can get together.

[HeroZero]

You can get away with normal boys thusly

 

40-50 orc Biguns

Full Command, Extra Hand weapons

Razor Standard

 

Almost the exact same kill ratio but less durable.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So this week I will take a go with Orc Big'uns, Arrer Boyz, Wolf Gobs and Doom Diver. Adding in a BSB too.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Learning a lot from my games, which really is that O&G is a lower teir army that one needs a high level of adaptability to pull a win. The Orc mob struggles to cross the board and unlike many of the melee oriented armies don't do well with two ranks left.

 

Now I just need to figure out how best to use what I have knowing that no one element is great and only in a synergistic way can I begin to win combats. An Orc mob on its own will lose to skavens without assistance like Er' We Go or a flank charge. War Machines need to be taken in twos, one is just Too unreliable. One Mangler will never connect with anything. This is the theme throughout.

 

O&G armor is literally a cardboard box. Only Grimgore has a decent armor. So expect every damage roll made is a wound. All cav options die like flies and don't have any real abilities to make them worth taking them outside of Warmachine Hunters and redirecters.

 

The main thing I see O&G army having to its advantage is cheap heros. Hordes are not all that for me at least.

[Peanut]

At OFCC, I had the most success with my hoard of night goblins, surprisngly. 57 strong, nets, two fanatics, and four characters. I threw the bad moon banner in there with a bsb and they could hold all game.

 

I also had great success with my boar chariots and arachnarok. And curse of the bad moon. And doom divers. Everything else was garbage. Boar riders, orc big uns, spear chukkas etc.

 

I have tried an extreme horde build a few times and its worked wonders. Try four hordes! Of course no one wants to paint that much, but i think its where o and g shine. Just outlast em with cheap, decent hordes.

[rudra34]

I will tell you this right now - you do not need armor to be effective!   Don't focus on keeping the orcas alive, because it wont happen.  They get +1 strength on the charge, and they will die in droves to you opponent.  This makes them a 1-combat army.  By that I mean that you want to win as many combats as you can on the charge.  Multi-charge whenever possible, and keep your orc units big and cheap.  Even with low WS, a unit of orcs, big'uns, or black orcs can be very scary to other infantry.  Keep heavily-armored units busy with chaff, or weaken them with a doomdiver, manglas, fanatics, or other shooty magic.

 

Keep the pressure up.  When I play against an orc army, I am afraid to get into combat a lot of the time.  

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I will tell you this right now - you do not need armor to be effective! Don't focus on keeping the orcas alive, because it wont happen. They get +1 strength on the charge, and they will die in droves to you opponent. This makes them a 1-combat army. By that I mean that you want to win as many combats as you can on the charge. Multi-charge whenever possible, and keep your orc units big and cheap. Even with low WS, a unit of orcs, big'uns, or black orcs can be very scary to other infantry. Keep heavily-armored units busy with chaff, or weaken them with a doomdiver, manglas, fanatics, or other shooty magic.

 

Keep the pressure up. When I play against an orc army, I am afraid to get into combat a lot of the time.

 

Not disagreeing with this at all but it does play into what I was saying. No one unit is scary on its own and they need support from other elements.

 

Every army is like this to one extent or another but with O&G it becomes obvious. Comparing my orcs to my Empire my Empire was more reliable on a unit to unit level where there were some units I knew could handle their own and I could focus my attention on other areas of the battle. With the Orcs I don't feel that way. Every unit needs support and many of them have ramdom elements that can take them out of action for a turn you really need them. So you need a secondary backup.

 

But I am beginning to see the need to keep things cheap cheap cheap. Steadfast enemies are going to be a big issue. They could careless if my Warboss calls a Waaagh! if their just going to roll on a steadfast.Then the grind kills my unit of Big'uns off.

 

Going to be looking through the book for more but the Pumpwagon and its flanking impact hits are looking better and better.

[MexicanNinja]

Well, let's continue with this Orcs vs Empire you have going on above.

 

Doomdivers scare all things with armour and can force panic checks on demi's very fast.  They break open those 1+ armour save knights just as easily.  A unit of 40 savages or black orcs will rock ANY empire infantry unit they get into contact with.  Have you tried a rock lobba yet?  That is great for attempting to thin out hordes.  Before you tell me how random it is, I know, I used to take 2 in my Bret army and the missed.....a lot.  However, I think you are looking at your orcs in the wrong fasion.

 

From what I gather by your above posts is that you are expecting them to survive against too many things.  Orcs die, period.  It's hard to play with most armies at our current points level because we don't have access to the normal things which would make the armies better.  I.e, kitted out characters (something O&G armies can abuse), big units (again, another strong point for O&G).  I know you said the horde life may not be for you; however, if you don't take hordes with O&G armies I am afraid you aren't going to get results from your infantry.  They're just like skaven, in the regards that they NEED lots of bodies in every army.

 

Also, don't try to contact your mangler into a unit, you want it to go through units.  Are you going to be at the escalation next week?  If so, and if you don't mind I would like to watch one of your games and ask you questions while you are playing.  Sometimes that will help players.  I have played against lots of O&G armies and they were extremely tough for me to beat because of how much cheap hurt they can bring.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well, let's continue with this Orcs vs Empire you have going on above.

 

Doomdivers scare all things with armour and can force panic checks on demi's very fast.  They break open those 1+ armour save knights just as easily.  A unit of 40 savages or black orcs will rock ANY empire infantry unit they get into contact with.  Have you tried a rock lobba yet?  That is great for attempting to thin out hordes.  Before you tell me how random it is, I know, I used to take 2 in my Bret army and the missed.....a lot.  However, I think you are looking at your orcs in the wrong fasion.

 

From what I gather by your above posts is that you are expecting them to survive against too many things.  Orcs die, period.  It's hard to play with most armies at our current points level because we don't have access to the normal things which would make the armies better.  I.e, kitted out characters (something O&G armies can abuse), big units (again, another strong point for O&G).  I know you said the horde life may not be for you; however, if you don't take hordes with O&G armies I am afraid you aren't going to get results from your infantry.  They're just like skaven, in the regards that they NEED lots of bodies in every army.

 

Also, don't try to contact your mangler into a unit, you want it to go through units.  Are you going to be at the escalation next week?  If so, and if you don't mind I would like to watch one of your games and ask you questions while you are playing.  Sometimes that will help players.  I have played against lots of O&G armies and they were extremely tough for me to beat because of how much cheap hurt they can bring.

I will be and would love that. I know thier book well but putting it together seem tougher than I first thought.

[Brother Glacius]

have you tried chariots? those compliment your mob charges fairly well. Not hard to make sure they fit in, and they can add some decent wounds to the combat. But yes, you need to make sure you have ranks to remove steadfast. Also, since chariots are a bit scary, they will focus ranged attention off your boyz, ensuring more of them reach the enemy lines.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ok so new list with the More Boyz theme, kind of.

 

Warboss Black Orc, Armor of Destiny, shield.

LVL 2 Orc Shaman, Shrieking Blade, Dispel Scroll.

Big Boss, Armor of Silvered Steel, BSB, Great Weapon.

 

36 Orc Boyz Big'Uns, Full Command, AHW, Standard of Discipline.

16 Arrer Boyz, Boss and Mus.

Orc Boar Chariot

Doom Diver

[Threejacks]

 Ya know sometimes Orc Chariots and Doom Divers don't mix

 

 

 Anyhow nice huge blob of Big Green guys there!

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ya know sometimes Orc Chariots and Doom Divers don't mix

 

 

Anyhow nice huge blob of Big Green guys there!

Well at least your's got to fire and hit something that game. You even got a kill.

 

Well with that block I am already starting off with 5CR and if I can get that chariot in the flank I should be able to break a standard unit, as long as it is not stubborn. Hence my Boyz being in a 6x6 block to get more ranks than my opponent.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Been watching and reading a number of battle reports and the biggest theme is th Hammer and Anvil with O&G. When someone plays their units as a standalone killing unit they lose the game. So I am going to focus on that more.

 

My saying now will be O&G=H&A.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well big changes this week in the Warhammer world but my list is going to remain similar to last week. I liked the Boyz Mob and my Arrer Boyz did much better than I expected. Way better than my old Night Gobo bow gits. It was the 24" range and the fact I almost wanted my opponent's Chaff to charge me.

 

So this week I will just be up grading my characters some and just waiting to see what players bring this week. Will we see more beefed up Lords? Most likely so a weapon that is made to kill characters might be in order. The Obsidian Blade might be good for the Armored Heros that are going to be carrying a +1 AS. My biggest issue will be Cav since my army will all be on foot. Or I can spend the points on upgrading my shaman to a 3rd lvl so I can be more likely to get more spells off and don't have my opponent do what one of mine did last week. I had only one spell that was really any good and the other my opponent could care less about so he always save his dispel dice to stop the Hand of Gork hard enough to force me to throw 6 dice at it just to get the IF so it went off. Of course he then got sucked into the Warp right after putting my Boyz in the right position. So painful. But again loved the Arrer Boyz so far.

 

So since my Arrer Boyz have been doing so well I decided to get at least 3 or 4 done for this week but I was wrong. I should have 17 just about fully done by game time Sunday. Just got going and couldn't bring myself to stop when I got the momentum going.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So during my team battle this week my Orcs made me proud. I was able to take a charge from Choosen and a Chaos Chariot to my Orc Mob and survive long enough to grind through them and take a Warshine too.

 

Even though it was an overall tie and a great game my fear of WoC is weaning some. Of course his list was built for fun and not meant for making players cry.

 

So I am going to continue witg building on my list with Night Gobbos for the following week. (Next week is hero hammer so it will be Black Orcs and a lvl 4 shaman.) So with a 100 points I got a large mob of NG. This will take the anvil job off my Big'Uns and leave the Orcs to do their job, bringing the hammer.