Squig Hoppers and movement

[McNathanson]

So Squig Hoppers have the "Random Movement 3d6" and "Skirmisher" rules.

 

How do they move exactly?  I can follow the Random Movement rules, which says that they move like this:
 

When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish it to travel. Then, roll the dice shown in cl1e model's profile. Finally, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. No other pivots can be made. - WFB 8th ed p74

But in the Skirmisher rules it says:

 

A unit of Skirmishers moves, wheels, marches and charges just like other troops. However, due to the incredible flexibility of its formation, unless it charges, a skirmishing unit is allowed to reform as many times as it wishes during its move, provided that no model ends up moving a number of inches higher than double its Move value. - WFB 8th ed p77

So my question is, can a Random Movement + Skirmisher unit reform during its random move (provided of course no model moves more than 2x the number rolled), or can it only pivot as a unit and move forward?

 

I ask because my opponent at OFCC was reforming into a conga line before rolling, then rolling to check for reaching me, then if he did not reach me, reforming into a wide line to get as much distance as possible from my potential counter charge.  Seemed potentially legal so I just let it go without comment, but I wanted to check for next time!

Thanks,
Nathan

[WarlordGhrom]

Wow....that is so far from what OFCC games should be like.  Gaming the rules is just sad. 

Sorry you ran into that. 

I had heard of someone doing the reform/conga to jump into the building turn one as well from someone else, but couldn't believe people were doing that in OFCC.

 

*sad face*

[rudra34]

The random move and skirmish combo is truly a clustercuss of rules to try and manage together.  I've never honestly thought of it, but due to the rigid rules that go along with random movement (turn, roll, move) I'd probably vote that reforms are not allowed while moving.  Definitely up for debate though.

 

 

As for the conga into a building rule, it's pretty meh.  I mean, the rules are written badly enough to allow it, so it's not fair to fault the player.  Still, it is shenanigans.

[Romes]

Hi Nathan,

 

You should read through this thread:

 

http://www.wargamersusa.com/showthread.php?tid=2465

 

The summary conclusion (to me) is that you cannot perform a reform during the random movement sub-phase. 

[Romes]

The random move and skirmish combo is truly a clustercuss of rules to try and manage together.  I've never honestly thought of it, but due to the rigid rules that go along with random movement (turn, roll, move) I'd probably vote that reforms are not allowed while moving.  Definitely up for debate though.

 

 

As for the conga into a building rule, it's pretty meh.  I mean, the rules are written badly enough to allow it, so it's not fair to fault the player.  Still, it is shenanigans.

 

The master's FAQ and ETC FAQ deal with this by disallowing movement where a single model exceeds double it's base movement value with the exception of characters joining units, in which case they have to move as little as possible if they exceed double their movement value.

 

This works really well!

 

However I agree with Zealot, that's how the base rules are written and if your event isn't using a FAQ, it's not really the players fault for performing a legal maneuver. =/

[rudra34]

Quick derail:

 

It took me a second to realize that I was Zealot!   That's the forum title or ranking or whatever, Username is up in blue :)

 

Now, back on track.

[Romes]

oh. sorry. duh =/

[splinx]

We locally up here play a fluffy rule i.e. squib hopper riders wouldn't have time or the dexterity to reform twice! LOL I think they would have more effort trying to control the little terrors!

 

Im sorry you played against someone that was obviously trying to gain an advantage out of the usual ambiguous ruleset! You're welcome to come and play against my fluffy crazy gobbos anytime! 

[McNathanson]

Thanks for the replies folks!  To be clear I wasn't trying to complain about it being a cheesy move, just wondering if it's legal or not.  

 

I read the above thread (thanks Romes) and it covers most of the ways one might read the rules.  But I didn't see an argument mentioned, which I personally think is pretty conclusive.  Here's my thinking:

1) I am fairly sure is not legal is to reform before rolling for distance, given that you cannot know what your "M" statistic is (for purposes of not reforming more than double that value) until you've rolled it!  

 

2) That said, it seems then that you must not be able to reform after rolling either, as you could then know exactly how to reform in order to make a charge occur (and effectively this would be 2x your roll), or if you could not make it, then you could reform to stay as far as possible from a counter charge.  This seems pretty clearly outside any legal moving, being able to control your random move to be precisely anything in between [what you rolled] and [2x what you rolled].

 

So to me, reforming before the roll is clearly not legal, and reforming after knowing your roll is clearly abuse of the rules.

That's the argument I'd make anyway, but it appears this one isn't clearly FAQ'd, so we'll just have to come up with a OFCC ruling at some point :)
 

[ClassicFlava]

well skirmishers cant reform when they charge so i would say if they are going to hit a unit that they cannot reform but if they are just moving then i would allow it

[MexicanNinja]

Thanks for the replies folks!  To be clear I wasn't trying to complain about it being a cheesy move, just wondering if it's legal or not.  

 

I read the above thread (thanks Romes) and it covers most of the ways one might read the rules.  But I didn't see an argument mentioned, which I personally think is pretty conclusive.  Here's my thinking:

 

1) I am fairly sure is not legal is to reform before rolling for distance, given that you cannot know what your "M" statistic is (for purposes of not reforming more than double that value) until you've rolled it!  

 

2) That said, it seems then that you must not be able to reform after rolling either, as you could then know exactly how to reform in order to make a charge occur (and effectively this would be 2x your roll), or if you could not make it, then you could reform to stay as far as possible from a counter charge.  This seems pretty clearly outside any legal moving, being able to control your random move to be precisely anything in between [what you rolled] and [2x what you rolled].

 

So to me, reforming before the roll is clearly not legal, and reforming after knowing your roll is clearly abuse of the rules.

 

That's the argument I'd make anyway, but it appears this one isn't clearly FAQ'd, so we'll just have to come up with a OFCC ruling at some point :)

 

NtK, no, you cannot reform when doing a random movement.  You declare the direction you are going to move and then roll for the distance move.  They receive the skirmish rule so they are -1 to hit with shooting attacks.  I've played against many lists using squig hoppers and not a single one of them had tried those shenanigans.  You got cheated on that portion.

 

More specific answers:

 

1)  It is an illegal move to reform before rolling the movement distance because you are unable to move an model in the unit more than their movement allowance.  So, like you stated, you have no clue what their movement value will be for that movement phase.

 

2)  No, you are unable to reform once you roll the distance.  You just move the models in a straight line the number of inches rolled.  I don't care how your opponent argues it, they are wrong 100% of the time.  It would be like me saying that since a Hell Pit Abomination is a lone model that I could pivot it as many times as I like once the movement distance is rolled.  The same could be applied to steam tanks and doomwheels.  You simple can't pivot the hoppers, once you roll the distance they move.

 

I don't think there needs to be an OFCC ruling on that.  Like I stated, that's the first time I've heard of someone doing that.  I believe it's due to no one in that person's local gaming group calling them out on what they are doing and so they have be able to abuse what isn't allowed.

 

Sorry you had to run into that mess during your game.

[Sylvos]

NTK -

Your opponent did nothing illegal.

I can appreciate your desire to have a rules clarification and I am happy to provide better clarification on the issue sometime with you as that is a rather interesting situation that can cause confusion even to veteran players.

 

1.  You are allowed to reform before you move.

2.  If you are a skirmisher you are allowed to reform as many times as you like as long as your maximum distance traveled does not exceed double  the movement characteristic.  

3.  You can do the same thing with Fast Cavalry as long as you do not exceed the movement value.  

4.  You are able to reform before pivoting on the spot which is a "free move" anyway.

 

Also, and these are qualifying questions I ask to everyone when they had a rules question during game so I hope you don't think I'm singling you out cause that is not my intention:

 

Did you ask your opponent about the rule and what he was doing?  

Did you ask him to cite the specific rules he was employing to justify his actions?

If he did and you disagreed did you seek clarification from a rules judge or offer to dice off to resolve the rules quandary?

 

 

Other members commenting on this thread:

 

I do not appreciate the bandwagon wolf pack tactics that members of this board just engaged in where they:

a.  Make accusations of cheating.

b.  Make references to things being "outside the spirit of OFCC" when the actions taken were not.  You are flaming a member of this board with little or no grounds for reason other than speculation.

c.  Calling things an abuse of the rules when they are blatantly not.

 

I would like to point out the Code of Conduct;

Rule 2: Be Friendly and Courteous
Everyone wants to have a positive experience while on the Forums - please make sure
that you contribute to it. Please do not post anything harassing, threatening, abusive,
lewd, or inflammatory. Flaming people, products, or organizations is never acceptable.
Neither is trolling. Instead, be friendly, helpful, and supportive. Ordo Fanaticus tries to
keep a casual environment and appreciates any help with this.

 

While the opponent was not named (which I appreciate NTK), he is still a member of this boards and active member of the community and people making accusations like that is entirely inappropriate.  Especially when the opponent score incredibly high sportsmanship points the entire weekend.

[ClassicFlava]

NtK, no, you cannot reform when doing a random movement.  You declare the direction you are going to move and then roll for the distance move.  They receive the skirmish rule so they are -1 to hit with shooting attacks.  I've played against many lists using squig hoppers and not a single one of them had tried those shenanigans.  You got cheated on that portion.

 

More specific answers:

 

1)  It is an illegal move to reform before rolling the movement distance because you are unable to move an model in the unit more than their movement allowance.  So, like you stated, you have no clue what their movement value will be for that movement phase.

 

2)  No, you are unable to reform once you roll the distance.  You just move the models in a straight line the number of inches rolled.  I don't care how your opponent argues it, they are wrong 100% of the time.  It would be like me saying that since a Hell Pit Abomination is a lone model that I could pivot it as many times as I like once the movement distance is rolled.  The same could be applied to steam tanks and doomwheels.  You simple can't pivot the hoppers, once you roll the distance they move.

 

I don't think there needs to be an OFCC ruling on that.  Like I stated, that's the first time I've heard of someone doing that.  I believe it's due to no one in that person's local gaming group calling them out on what they are doing and so they have be able to abuse what isn't allowed.

 

Sorry you had to run into that mess during your game.

So by this logic the unit can never reform.  There is no way that is correct.  Sylvos has it right and i 100% agree that people should not be questioning the player's sportsmanship and whether he was playing in the spirit of the OFCC.  The original poster did not so no one else has any business doing so.  

[MexicanNinja]

Sylvos and ClassicFlava

 

I disagree entirely about reforming as many times as you like.  You may pivot before rolling for random movement but then move that many inches.

 

Are you allowed to pivot as many times as you like with doomwheels, HPA's, steamtanks, etc?

 

 

Fast Cavalry doesn't apply to this example.  They don't have the random movement rule.

 

The rule for random movement (MRB page 74) states:

 

When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish it to travel.  Then, roll the dice shown in the model's profile.  Finally, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice.  No other pivots are allowed.

 

So, yes, reforming before rolling the random movement dice was illegal.  It's an illegal move in two ways:

 

1) You can't reform if you don't know what your movement value is

 

2) You can only pivot, based on the rules for random movement, prior to rolling the movement distance

 

I completely understand what the rules for skirmishers state; however, the rules for random movement is very clear as well.

[Fixxer]

^^^Truth, and thank you Sylvos for your clarity on the rule and personal conduct, well said. 

 

I saw a few of these games in action, and appreciate the thoughtfulness of the tactic given I had never thought of it before. Squig hoppers are the ONLY random movement skirmisher, if Im not mistaken. I interpret it as a legal move as Sylvos has clearly described above. 

 

I was in fact taken back by the tactic in the opposite way. I thought it was a brilliant move. 

 

Rules questions are very important. In the few games I watched where that tactic was deployed I dont believe a single player made a scruff because of, yes sportsmanship, guy was an excellent player. I do see the point in bringing it up later,  having a full discussion on the matter because it is an important element of the game and should not be clarified at a single table, but to the community as a whole. 

[MexicanNinja]

So by this logic the unit can never reform.  There is no way that is correct.  Sylvos has it right and i 100% agree that people should not be questioning the player's sportsmanship and whether he was playing in the spirit of the OFCC.  The original poster did not so no one else has any business doing so.  

No, units with random movement are not allowed to reform during the movement phase.  They are allowed a pivot before rolling to move.  I used to play with steam tanks and HPA's which both have the random movement rule.  You pivot the model, roll the dice, move that many inches in a straight line.

[MexicanNinja]

^^^Truth, and thank you Sylvos for your clarity on the rule and personal conduct, well said. 

 

I saw a few of these games in action, and appreciate the thoughtfulness of the tactic given I had never thought of it before. Squig hoppers are the ONLY random movement skirmisher, if Im not mistaken. I interpret it as a legal move as Sylvos has clearly described above. 

 

I was in fact taken back by the tactic in the opposite way. I thought it was a brilliant move. 

 

Rules questions are very important. In the few games I watched where that tactic was deployed I dont believe a single player made a scruff because of, yes sportsmanship, guy was an excellent player. I do see the point in bringing it up later,  having a full discussion on the matter because it is an important element of the game and should not be clarified at a single table, but to the community as a whole. 

Don't get mad when you play someone with an HPA who pivots as many times as they'd like during the movement phase for being a solo model then.

[Billy Ocean]

Without getting too deep into the rules-lawyering, the arguments against the reform all hinge on one tenet: that the random move rule over-rides the skirmishers rule. Without a specific statement that one rule over-rides another, we are left with no option but to assume that the rules combine. The simplest (only??) way for those two rules to combine is to follow the Random Moves rule by the letter during the actual random move (i.e. between rolling the dice, and pushing the models that far forward), but to respect the skirmishers rule outside of it. So reforming the hoppers before the dice-roll, and after pushing them 3d6" forward is entirely acceptable. By the same logic, pivoting a hell-pit DURING the random move is not acceptable. We simply cannot assume that one Special Rule negates another without an explicit statement, or else we run into all kinds of problems.

 

Also, there is no issue about not knowing whether the reform is possible before rolling the dice. We know 3d6 movement is at least 3", double that is 6". There is no reform that a 5-wide unit of hoppers could try to make that is not achievable with 6". 

[MexicanNinja]

Billy, I could accept that you could reform after you roll the distance moved.  I cannot agree with the unit being able to reform prior to rolling for distance allowed because the unit doesn't have a movement distance until the dice are rolled.  This would be adding more movement than allowed.  If you reformed and a model moved 6" this why and then you rolled a 4 for the random movement, you have just given your unit an extra 2".

[Billy Ocean]

Check out my last sentence. 

[MexicanNinja]

I ask all of you this then.

 

I am using a lone model with random movement and roll a 10 for my random movement.  Since it follows the rules for random movement and the rules for lone models and movement, I would be able to move where every and/or charge whatever I like within 10".  Is this acceptable or accepted?

[Billy Ocean]

No. After you have rolled the dice, push the model that far forward in the direction you are facing. I am only saying that the Skirmish rule comes into effect outside of that random move action. To assume it doesn't would require an explicit statement.

[Fixxer]

Pivots are not reforms.

 

Okay, so if Skirmishers can reform as many times as they want during the movement phase, whats to say they dont reform during the first few inches of their move and then again at the end. The skirmisher rules state that they can reform as many times as they want, not pivot. I do agree that the process should be roll 3D6 to calculate movement, reform, push models straight forward, reform. While not allowing a single model to move MORE than the double their movement (distance rolled) which would be plenty enough reform them anyway they want. The rules kind of marry, its just the process of execution.  

[Billy Ocean]

To allow skirmishers to reform during a random move would be splicing one ruleset inside of another. To prevent them reforming at all would be assuming one rule negates another. In the absence of an explicit statement, the most logical approach I can see is to allow the rules to co-exist, but not interfere. Reform ---> Resolve entire random move (dice, push) ---> Reform

[MexicanNinja]

No. After you have rolled the dice, push the model that far forward in the direction you are facing. I am only saying that the Skirmish rule comes into effect outside of that random move action. To assume it doesn't would require an explicit statement.

 Now you're picking and chosing which rules work with random movement and which ones don't.  The rules for lone models and movement state they may pivot as many times as they want during the movement.

 

if you're saying that it's legal for skirmishers to reform as many times as they like then the same would apply to lone models and movement because lone models have that specific rule in the MRB.  With your statement about allowing the skirmish rule and random movement rule to co-exist why wouldn't the rules for lone models and movement co-exist with random movement?  if you're going to allow one of them you need to allow them both.