Squig Hoppers and movement

[Brother Glacius]

Some people just won't be convinced. That is a lovely super long post. Is there anywhere in the Random Movement rules that state that a unit can do anything else other than point the direction they wish to move (either by spinning in place, or pivot about the center in the case of a unit) and move directly forward the number rolled? You see, that rule clearly states the extent of the movement allowed. Further, the book says that movement maneuvers only take place in the Remaining Moves phase, the lone exception are the charge wheels..which are spelled out in the Charge section. Random Movement takes place in the Compulsory phase.

 

At this point, if an opponent tries to do that against me, I will disagree. If they wish to continue with it, I will do die roll. I will seriously consider not playing against that opponent again.

[McNathanson]

xoxtile, your condescending attitude made it REALLY hard to read your post (e.g. the LOL'ing and irrelevant comments about 3d6 not equaling zero).  So just as a note: man, you might be a sharp guy, but you might also consider the statistics which make it a certainty that there are other, even sharper people out there, and even a non-trivial possibility that some of them might be on this forum.  So just cool the presumption and attitude, please.

 

That said, I did read through it.  The minimum result of 3d6" = 3" , clearly.  However this does NOT mean they have M3 until they roll.  That's inventing a rule.  Furthermore reforming without knowing the unit's movement is also NOT possible by the rules.  Granted your argument seems reasonable: "Once I roll, my movement will be at least 3, and therefore I'll act like it's 3 until I know what it is."  But as I said, that's inventing a rule, unless there's an FAQ or rule out there that hasn't been cited yet.

 

Also I'm not sure what to make of your diagrams.  The blue formation looks right, the grey cloud looks roughly right (although I doubt it's exactly right since moving to one extreme of the cloud could preclude moving to the other extreme, or not, depending on exact model facing and position).  But the yellow gives some strange impression that a reform is minimal, when in fact it can create (or retract) quite a bit of reach for the unit, up to 6" of reach in larger units without model-to-model coherency acting as the constraint.

 

The fact is that the two rules (Skirmishers and Random Movement) conflict with one another.  Typically in WFB when two rules conflict, we use the more specific rule.  The question here is which one is "more specific", and since that's ambiguous, we are left to make up a "ruling" (i.e. make up a rule).

Once we understand that the rulebook is ambiguous and therefore we have to make up a rule, the discussion should turn to what plays the "best" (within the parts of the rules that are clear, is the cleanest, most elegant, least abusable, simplest, etc.)  The Masters discussion came to the same conclusion (that a ruling was needed), which tells me we aren't the only ones who believe the rulebook is ambiguous in this case.  And I think their ruling is as good (better actually) than any of the others I've seen, especially after reading the reasoning behind it.

Thanks,
NtK

[xoxtile]

Is there anywhere in the Random Movement rules that state that a unit can do anything else other than point the direction they wish to move (either by spinning in place, or pivot about the center in the case of a unit) and move directly forward the number rolled?

Again, the Special Rules section tells us: “Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative.”

Do either the Random Movement or Skirmishers special rules note any preclusion to each other. No. Does either rule directly contradict the other. No. So then why do we accept that Squig Hoppers use the formation and shooting penalty of the Skirmishers, Special Rule but not the Reform?

 

Further, the book says that movement maneuvers only take place in the Remaining Moves phase, the lone exception are the charge wheels..which are spelled out in the Charge section. Random Movement takes place in the Compulsory phase.

I cannot find anywhere that the book says movement maneuvers only take place in the Remaining Moves sub phase.

I can find these two rulings though, the first from the Compulsory Moves sub-phase and the second from the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

“Aside from fleeing troops, units that are forced to move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase otherwise follow the normal movement rules, unless clearly stated. ” 

“During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform maneuvers.”

So a normal unit that is forced, for whatever reason, to move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase can do any normal moves/maneuvers in that phase BUT that does mean that they can NOT then decide to reform again in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. 

[xoxtile]

xoxtile, your condescending attitude made it REALLY hard to read your post (e.g. the LOL'ing and irrelevant comments about 3d6 not equaling zero).  So just as a note: man, you might be a sharp guy, but you might also consider the statistics which make it a certainty that there are other, even sharper people out there, and even a non-trivial possibility that some of them might be on this forum.  So just cool the presumption and attitude, please.

 

That said, I did read through it.  The minimum result of 3d6" = 3" , clearly.  However this does NOT mean they have M3 until they roll.  That's inventing a rule.  Furthermore reforming without knowing the unit's movement is also NOT possible by the rules.  Granted your argument seems reasonable: "Once I roll, my movement will be at least 3, and therefore I'll act like it's 3 until I know what it is."  But as I said, that's inventing a rule, unless there's an FAQ or rule out there that hasn't been cited yet.

 

Also I'm not sure what to make of your diagrams.  The blue formation looks right, the grey cloud looks roughly right (although I doubt it's exactly right since moving to one extreme of the cloud could preclude moving to the other extreme, or not, depending on exact model facing and position).  But the yellow gives some strange impression that a reform is minimal, when in fact it can create (or retract) quite a bit of reach for the unit, up to 6" of reach in larger units without model-to-model coherency acting as the constraint.

 

The fact is that the two rules (Skirmishers and Random Movement) conflict with one another.  Typically in WFB when two rules conflict, we use the more specific rule.  The question here is which one is "more specific", and since that's ambiguous, we are left to make up a "ruling" (i.e. make up a rule).

 

Once we understand that the rulebook is ambiguous and therefore we have to make up a rule, the discussion should turn to what plays the "best" (within the parts of the rules that are clear, is the cleanest, most elegant, least abusable, simplest, etc.)  The Masters discussion came to the same conclusion (that a ruling was needed), which tells me we aren't the only ones who believe the rulebook is ambiguous in this case.  And I think their ruling is as good (better actually) than any of the others I've seen, especially after reading the reasoning behind it.

 

Thanks,

NtK

Yup, quite right, I apologize for any snippy or condescending language. It was very late and I was a little steamed up at being accused of cheating and un-sportsman like conduct. I am feeling much more rational and even tempered today so I will do my best to answer any more questions on this subject in a civil tone. Again, I am apologize.

[MexicanNinja]

Xoxtile, I only read a portion of your original posting because it was all over the place with different things.  However, there are mainly two things I am counter debating with this issue:

 

1) As you just stated two rules are cumulative.  Why are people not allowed to pivot an abmon during the random movement?  It follows movement rules  for a single model and for random movement.

 

2) The movement is 3D6 for squig hoppers.  It's not 3"-18".  Without having a clear distance before you roll the random movement distance, you don't have a set movement.  It also states that you must pivot the entire unit then roll for the random distance.  Furthermore, skirmishers may reform as many times during their movement.  It doesn't state before their movement.  Now, we revert back to random movement.  There is no movement vaule until after the entire unit pivots on the center and rolls their random movement distance.  At this point, you know have a movement distance and can move the unit.  Like you said, you must consider both rules and that is what I have done with this example.

 

                a. Pivot unit from the center of each model before rolling for random distance

                b. Roll for random distance (you now have a movement value)

                c. Move the distance rolled

                d. It is now at this point where the confusion comes into play when moving a unit of skirmishers with the random movement phase.  One rule says to move in a straight line while the other states you may reform as many times during your movement.  It's not that anyone is discrediting the skirmish rule, it's the fact that the other rule specifically states move in a straight line.  They are contradicting of each other.

[McNathanson]

Yup, quite right, I apologize for any snippy or condescending language. It was very late and I was a little steamed up at being accused of cheating and un-sportsman like conduct. I am feeling much more rational and even tempered today so I will do my best to answer any more questions on this subject in a civil tone. Again, I am apologize.

 

Thanks man, no harm done.  I also didn't realize who you were, which totally explains feeling defensive!  I hope I made it abundantly clear that I did not consider this a "cheesy" move at all, and as you know, didn't even complain at all during the game.  I just wanted to come up with a common decision going forward.  So I apologize for the criticism that was directed your way by other posters.

 

-----

 

So continuing the rules discussion, I gather you still don't think the two special rules are in conflict.  I think that's the key point of dissent between your reasoning, and what I'm arguing.  

 

A couple examples of the conflicts I think result in ambiguity, which in turn requires a ruling:

 

1) The Random Movement rules specify that the unit must pivot:

 

 

When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish it to travel.

- WFB 8th ed. p.74

 but the Skirmishers rules do not define how Skirmishers pivot at all.  To me this is an example of a conflict that requires us to do more than simply combine the rules (like we can do in the case of, say, ASF and Stubborn, which do not conflict).

 

2) The Random Movement rules specify that the unit does not HAVE a Movement characteristic at all:

 

Models with the Random Movement special rule do not have a Movement characteristic, but rather a dice roll, such as D6, 2D6 or 3D6.

- WFB 8th ed. p.74

 but the Skirmishers rule is dependent on a Move value (which I assume is poor wording for "Movement characteristic modified by applicable modifiers" such as Banner of Swiftness, since "Move value" is not a defined term that I know of):

 

 

A unit of Skirmishers moves, wheels, marches and charges just like other troops. However, due to the incredible flexibility of its formation, unless it  charges, a skirmishing unit is allowed to reform as many times as it wishes during its move, provided that no model ends up moving a number of inches higher than double its Move value.

 To me this is another clear conflict, where we are required to make an interpretation that is not simply combining the two rules.

 

So again, I think the rules are in conflict, and we are left to make a ruling that is the "best" rule we can come up with (per above definition of "best").  Simply trying to use ALL the rules for BOTH special rules doesn't work!

 

Thanks,

NtK

 

[Brother Glacius]

page 26.

"During your Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform maneuvers as described on page 13."

 

Page 13.

Maneuvers "There are two specific maneuvers that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform."

 

Did your hoppers move in the compulsory move phase? Yes. Therefore, they cannot move or perform maneuvers, ie wheel/reform in the remaining moves phase.

 

So then what movement can they do in the compulsory move phase. As defined by Random Movement, they can pivot, and then move directly forward 3d6.

 

Page 24:

"the player has no control over the movement of such troops and so these are referred to as compulsory moves."

[MexicanNinja]

NTK,  I guess the there's a third point to my counter debate.  The rule book states you can perform normal movement manouvers in the remainign moves phase.  Due to the random movement happening in the compulsory momvement subphase and not the remaining moves subphase, you could easily argue that those manouvers may not be executed at all because the skirmishers are making a random movement during the compulsory submoves phase and not the remaining moves subphase.

 

In all honesty, based off the rules specifically stating that you can wheel, reform, march during the remaining but not the compulsory moves subphase there really shouldn't be a debate on whether any model or unit with the random movement rule can do any of the above actions other than move in a straight line.  You're NOT moving in the remaining moves subphase and as such the manouvers are an illegal move.

 

The only exception is if the unit makes contact with a unit because it has to close the door as if it were a charge.

[MexicanNinja]

page 26.

"During your Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform maneuvers as described on page 13."

 

Page 13.

Maneuvers "There are two specific maneuvers that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform."

 

Did your hoppers move in the compulsory move phase? Yes. Therefore, they cannot move or perform maneuvers, ie wheel/reform in the remaining moves phase.

 

So then what movement can they do in the compulsory move phase. As defined by Random Movement, they can pivot, and then move directly forward 3d6.

 

Page 24:

"the player has no control over the movement of such troops and so these are referred to as compulsory moves."

Brother, I think this is the best thing you could have done.  I am actually mind blown that people still think you can do normal skirmishing movement during the random movement.  As I said above, and as you just posted, the random movement is done in a submoves phase which doesn't allow the use of any of those maneuvers.

 

If I sound blunt and it offends anyone, well, I'm sorry, but the rules have just been clearly laid out.  This should stop this debate due to the fact that the random movement happens during the compulsory movement and not the remaining movement.  It is an illegal move and could be considered cheating because the player is making illegal manuevers with a unit in a sub phase that doesn't allow for those manuevers to be used.