End Times Part Dos

[MexicanNinja]

You better not bow out Murphy.  Everyone has the option for what army they wish to play.  I started to play dark elves because I was attracted to the models.  It wasn't until a few weeks after the new book came out that the builds started happening.  Don't ever feel bad for playing your army.  You chose your army and your opponent chose theirs.  They didn't take your considerations into account when making the list.

 

You just had some rough luck with die rolls with an army that is hard to learn.  In all honesty, I think the main mistake was taking the unit of Black Orcs to begin with.  That unit should wait until you can field it with 40 Black Orcs (watch what that does to something).  I would strongly suggest going with Savages at this points level.  Those things wreck face.  I know you have a specific them in mind with spiders and that's cool.  What you have to remember about themed lists is that sometimes you give up on some much needed tactical units/models in doing so.  Think about the points level, re-evaluate each unit, and keep what is both effective and efficient for your army.  Don't make your army for your opponent.

[MexicanNinja]

Nagash + Casket + Heirotitan for me

Yeah, screw them all!

 

 

Heck, I'll take that Nagash combo on as well.  If we're in combat, I don't care about the magic phase.  If we're out of combat I'm still LD 10 with a 6+ ward (if the spell goes off) if I dispel it (the unit casting the spell takes D6 S6 hits).  If we are in combat, I'm pretty sure Nagash loses that fight.  Actaully, I would like to test play this fight sometime.  nagash and a heirotitan vs. malekith, death hag on cauldron of blood, and 9 Cold One Knights.  I'm giving the edge to the dark elves still.

 

In the meantime, here's some numbers to play with:

 

5 attacks with poison and no armour saves (death hag)

8 attacks with poison (2 witches on the cauldron)

5 S5 attacks (malekith)

14 attacks at S4 ( Cold One Knights and S6 on the charge)

8 S4 attacks (Cold Ones)

D6+1 S5 (Impact Hits)

 

So, that unit alone packs between 42-47 attacks on the charge. They have ASF and Murderous Prowess. So with the cauldron they get re-rolls to attacks against non ASF units and get to re-roll all wounds (including impact hits and cold one attacks for re-rolling to wound).  Don't forget that Malekith is also a level 4 caster and we all know the power of the dark magic.

[AgentP]

The thing about Nagash is that with just a couple spells he can drop his effective point value to zero. 450 monstrous infantry, 450 monstrous beasts, 600 points of chariots and 450 cavalry are all possible each round, placed essentially on any point on the board. You're absolutely right he dies. But all he needs is two successful spells to basically replace his cost. So unless he dies quick, or gets bad luck in magic, his death is a bit of a Pyrrhic victory

[McNathanson]

One thing I have done before that was really successful when playing regular opponents is to institute an auto-balancing system via a points advantage.  

 

From week to week, a given matchup (say my Dark Elves vs. Micah's Ogres) has a point advantage, where the loser each each can either add 100 points to his list, or subtract 100 from his opponent's list (to a minimum of say 2500 or whatever your local tourney norm is).

 

This allows you to play "hard" vs. "med" or even "soft" lists, and also accounts for player skill.  We've found that after a few weeks we generally settle in around a certain margin and start trading games back and forth.  For example initially I lost 4 in a row, so I was at +400 points, but then we started trading games, so that I was vacillating between ~+300 and +500 or so.

 

The only caveat is that one of the two lists needs to stay pretty much the same as the prior week; changing both lists will make it harder to find the balance point.

 

Give it a try, it's really pretty cool.  Frees you up to take units that aren't "worth their points", gives you close games versus disparate players, etc.

[MexicanNinja]

The thing about Nagash is that with just a couple spells he can drop his effective point value to zero. 450 monstrous infantry, 450 monstrous beasts, 600 points of chariots and 450 cavalry are all possible each round, placed essentially on any point on the board. You're absolutely right he dies. But all he needs is two successful spells to basically replace his cost. So unless he dies quick, or gets bad luck in magic, his death is a bit of a Pyrrhic victory

Yes, you are correct; however, I have watched several bat reps and very rairly did those units win the game for the side with nagash.  They still can't do anything the turn they come in and with the current meta around T3 armies and MSU many competitive armies will just continue to dance around the units or give up crap points to them.

[MexicanNinja]

That is a very cool idea NtK.  Have you done the army list swap game?  You make a list and bring an army and your opponent brings a list and the appropriate army.  You then trade lists and armies before the game begins.  This makes both players make a list that has to think about what the other may bring and you end up with some fun lists.

[JMGraham]

That is a very cool idea NtK.  Have you done the army list swap game?  You make a list and bring an army and your opponent brings a list and the appropriate army.  You then trade lists and armies before the game begins.  This makes both players make a list that has to think about what the other may bring and you end up with some fun lists.

 

The old Warhammer General's Compendium (love love love that book!) had some fun grudge-match recommendations, with something like a 5-game series being the ultimate arbitrator of superior generalship. It included, among other things, a list-swap. I've never actually done it before, but, it sounds like a blast!

[Fixxer]

THey are also affected by all rules for psychology..... take a fear test. 

 

Bout time Nurgle got some love. Only one left to do is Tzeenchs god unique unit, what could they possible do for them?  

[MexicanNinja]

... Only one left to do is Tzeenchs god unique unit, what could they possible do for them?

Well, they just add in Tzeentch so you roll a die before deployment and if you guess it right you win against Warhammer!

 

I mean, why wouldn't Tzeentch just be done with all this trickery and just say "yeah, i'm done bitches, you all lose"

[thatdave]

I still do not buy into End Times being the new face of Warhammer.

 

"Remember that in the End Times, you can spend 50% of your points on Lords!"

 

Is that saying that only in End Times games you get the change, or is it implying that all games of Warhammer are now in the End Times?  Until I get a clear and concise clarification from GW I am not convinced either way.

[Drak]

pg 462 " as well as new units and game rules we have included a brand new lore of magic......... as with all things described so far, you can use the Lore of Undeath when fighting the scenarios in this book, AND ALSO IN ANY other games of warhammer that you play....... as you can see, this section represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and special rules to go with them. INSTEAD you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use IN ANY GAMES of warhammer that you play."

 

I think they have made themselves fairly clear on their stance regarding End Times. freedom to choose and flexibility to play what you want to play :). additional rules to be played if you want to in conjunction with current 8th edition rules (general and army specific).

[thatdave]

Well, if it's so clear cut and obvious then why isn't End Times being widely accepted - both here and worldwide.  

 

I'm not saying that GW won't say "Yep, that's the way of it", but I am not buying into the whole thing just yet.

[MexicanNinja]

Well, if it's so clear cut and obvious then why isn't End Times being widely accepted - both here and worldwide.  

 

I'm not saying that GW won't say "Yep, that's the way of it", but I am not buying into the whole thing just yet.

Personally, I believe that people have a fear of "hero hammer" happening again.  However, unless you spam hero's in units, they don't win a lot of combats on their own.  Character's play different roles than in previous editions.  There's a reason why they lifted the cap of 0-1 and 0-3 to up to 25% and now with End Times up to 50%.  They give you access to "tools".  Heck, O&G players can spam goblin heroes in night goblin units and even then they just force you to kill characters before killing the night goblins by the dozen.  Sure, there are some armies who could do some crazy things but you can pretty much do the same spams now.  Even then, you need to look at each book.  Honestly, will most Ogre players spend the points on another Tyrant over ironguts, maneaters, etc?  I don't think so.  Sure, some armies like Empire, Skaven, O&G could greatly benefit from spamming more heroes; however, if you know those armies you will also see that the majority of their characters are still only "meh".

 

I think it's time that we all accept End TImes for what it is and start getting used to the rules.  If not, at some point you will face it and you will not be prepared for what comes with it.  Same thing with Lore of Undeath.  It's not an OP lore in the slightest.  I can do more damage with Lore of Death on a Supreme Sorceress or with a light council from Empire.  Lore of Death or Shadow in certain WE lists can cause more problems than Lore of Undeath will with most armies.

[dkieft]

Seriously? two pages of posts and no one has noticed that it claims 5 models for $55 USD? If those are 40mm bases... thems the cheapest large models ever!!!!!

[MexicanNinja]

Seriously? two pages of posts and no one has noticed that it claims 5 models for $55 USD? If those are 40mm bases... thems the cheapest large models ever!!!!!

Yeah, but you need 5 for a single rank and before any upgrades that's a 200 point unit.  If you want 2 ranks you're using 400 points.  They're not that impressive, IMO, as it's been said, they can be stomped, suffer from killing blow, don't get stomps, and take up a lot of space.  Dwarf players will love to play against those with flame cannons.  Dark Elf and Wood Elf armies run circles around them and shoot them off the table.  High Elf armies smash them with sword masters.  They have too many counters and I just don't see any real benifit from investing 200+ points for a unit of them.  Why would you take them over juggernaughts, chaos knights, or chimera's?

[dkieft]

Yeah, but you need 5 for a single rank and before any upgrades that's a 200 point unit.  If you want 2 ranks you're using 400 points.  They're not that impressive, IMO, as it's been said, they can be stomped, suffer from killing blow, don't get stomps, and take up a lot of space.  Dwarf players will love to play against those with flame cannons.  Dark Elf and Wood Elf armies run circles around them and shoot them off the table.  High Elf armies smash them with sword masters.  They have too many counters and I just don't see any real benifit from investing 200+ points for a unit of them.  Why would you take them over juggernaughts, chaos knights, or chimera's?

Dear lord man! Who cares about the rules!!!!! Look at the price!!!!

[MexicanNinja]

Yeah, I know, that's 5 bones less than 10 witches, 3 bucks less than 3 juggernaughts, 44 smackaroos less than 5 bloodknights.

[JMGraham]

Are 5 blood knights really $99? That seems unreal.

[MexicanNinja]

Are 5 blood knights really $99? That seems unreal.

That is indeed the naked truth.  They are waaaaaay over priced.  They started out at $75 when I first got mine then the price was jacked up a few months later.

[ClassicFlava]

I think they will work great with beastmen. Put some mino characters in there. Much better than minotaurs

[AgentP]

Would a doombull, who is MI get look out sir from these guys who are simple infantry, even though they share the same base size?

[Talapas]

Would a doombull, who is MI get look out sir from these guys who are simple infantry, even though they share the same base size?

Nope. All about unit type, not base size.

[dkieft]

It is most certainly too early to tell, but at a guess them not being MI is a mistake. Not necessarily that they'll ever correct it... but whatever

[MexicanNinja]

Who cares if a doombull is in the unit. You're giving up combat res. People will jus ignore the mino.

[HeroZero]

Anyone who doesn't think that characters cap going up doesn't matter.

 

Remember cheap character spam exists. Individual allocation exists.

 

Is it sky falling time. Hell no. But to pretend it won't matter is wrong too.