dkieft Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 So, MexicanNinja claims that the new Nurgle dudes suck cause he'll just kill them with his Cold one Knights unit. Yeah, he is right, they'd most likely lose terribly, but I think they are a pretty decent unit none the less... but that is not the point of this thread! MexicanNinja was kind enough to post an approximation of his unit which I have pasted below. The fun is to design a unit that can beat it in one on one combat. I have no clue how many points are in his unit... if some one wants to figure it out and build around that point level, great, otherwise, anything goes. If we're taking into account my two characters that are in the unit, just as the bull is in the above unit, then here are some numbers to play with... 5 attacks with poison and no armour saves (death hag) 8 attacks with poison (2 witches on the cauldron) 5 S5 attacks (malekith) 14 attacks at S4 ( Cold One Knights and S6 on the charge) 8 S4 attacks (Cold Ones) D6+1 S5 (Impact Hits) So, that unit packs between 42-47 attacks on the charge and 40 attacks if they are charged. They have ASF and Murderous Prowess. So with the cauldron they get re-rolls to attacks against non ASF units and get to re-roll all wounds (including impact hits and cold one attacks for re-rolling to wound). Don't forget that Malekith is also a level 4 caster and we all know the power of the dark magic. All models have at least WS5 and at least I6. Malekith has a 2+ward against non magic attacks and can break a random magic item on a 4+ if he scores one or more hits (so, there is the possibility of breaking a magic weapon before rolling to wound in a challenge and would give him his 2+ ward). Every cav model has a 2+/6++, the cauldron has a 6+/4++, and the death hag has a 5++. I'm pretty confident that I dish out more wounds than those nurgle things. Ready, set, GO GO GO!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 How many points is that? 1000? 1500? I put my money on that many points worth of steamtanks. 2 might even be enough to get the job done. If they get the charge off on you, then it's even faster death for the pointy-ears! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Define "beat." If I bog it down with 100 zombies, or shaven slaves, or goblins, is that beating it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Oh! 1000 points worth of Ironguts. You will probably win combat, but it wont matter when you are all dead :D Units like this are insane and powerful, but why does it matter? If you want to make a true challenge unit, then it needs to be able to survive retaliation from anything worth it's point value, not just do a lot of killing. Maleketh is great, btw, but in this instance is probably less useful than his points in additional cold one knights (who themselves have diminishing returns due to limited supporting attacks and only being strength 6 on the turn that they charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'll challenge that unit with my Grey Seer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Flanders Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 How do you get poison and no armor save? If it is how I think it is, I've been doing it wrong..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Vampire, Nightmare, Quickblood, Shield Lance, Nightshroud, Vampire, Nightmare, Quickblood Lance shield, HA The other tricksters shard, Sword if anti heroes Wight king, Nightmare, BSB, ASF Sword, Shield Dawnstone 9 Black knights, Banner of the barrows FC Lose ASF, lose STR Bonus, 12 KB attacks, 6 asf str 7 attacks . Cok has been handled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 The CoB is the best thing, next to the Warlocks, for the DE. That said I still am not sure of the COK unit attached with it. Does it make the COK better, yes, but WE and Executioners I feel benefit more from it. In this scenario with the new WoC unit the downfall of the Executioners is they attack simultaneous. Still get the ASF rerolls though. Of course MN has found better use for the COK than me and mine still get hosed after I swing. Now what I think is missing in the cross thread topic is resource use. How many points of your army do you use to counter your opponent's unit. My issue with this COK build is that it takes 1000 points, give or take a hundred, to put together. The WoC unit is 40 a model so 20 would only cost 800. What would the outcome be if you pimped that unit with a 1000 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickfuze Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Colossal K'daai Destroyer :P 395 points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Colossal K'daai Destroyer :P 395 points Yeah, and did you see its Swedish Comp? 55 for the first plus another 90 for a second. A little out of skew with the rest of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Allow me to retort... 1230 is the points value... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 How many points is that? 1000? 1500? I put my money on that many points worth of steamtanks. 2 might even be enough to get the job done. If they get the charge off on you, then it's even faster death for the pointy-ears! That's 3 units, this is a solo unit challenge Solo steam tank: Gets the charge with 3D6- say 16 hits. Kills 9 CoK's. Take's 4 wounds back from 18 attacks (5 no armour save poison attacks, 5 S5 attacks, 8 S3 poison attacks). Next round I should do about 4 wounds again to zero from the steam tank. Next round it's pretty much useless and dies. I charge the steam tank- D6+1 impact hits gets me 3 impact hits. Steam tank down from all the attacks I pump out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Define "beat." If I bog it down with 100 zombies, or shaven slaves, or goblins, is that beating it? Zombies lose in roughly 3 rounds of combat. I'm guessing I put between 20-30 wounds on them so with crumble the zombies aint [big bad swear word]. I take minimal, if any, loses. Zombies hit on 5's and wound on 4's (pretty sure they are S3). Skaven slaves will fail a LD test in roughly 3 rounds combat and I should take minimal, if any, loses. Slaves are hitting on 5's and wound on 4's (pretty sure they are S3). Goblins fail a LD test in roughly 3 rounds of combat and I should take minimal, if any, loses. Again, hitting on 5's and wound on 4's. Those units have crap stats, low LD, and don't do enough wounds back at me. In most cases, again, I'm doing 20-30 wounds per combat round to them and they may sneak a 1 or 2 through a round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Oh! 1000 points worth of Ironguts. You will probably win combat, but it wont matter when you are all dead :D Units like this are insane and powerful, but why does it matter? If you want to make a true challenge unit, then it needs to be able to survive retaliation from anything worth it's point value, not just do a lot of killing. Maleketh is great, btw, but in this instance is probably less useful than his points in additional cold one knights (who themselves have diminishing returns due to limited supporting attacks and only being strength 6 on the turn that they charge. I've fought the gutstar many times with this unit and the star loses. I pump out too many wounds and take away too many attacks. I won't be all dead. Malekith probably lives and so does the cauldron. If there's not enough damage coming back, that is able to survice retaliation. I only lose 4 attacks from the CoK and 8 attacks from the cold ones (which are accounted for and not included in my numbers above) for having 4 models in the back rank. Actually, now that I think about it, add 1 more attack from a CoK and 2 more from a cold one to the above numbers I have 5 knights plus Malekith in the front rank. I should kill 10 bases of ironguts (without impact hits) from my attacks and they hit on either 4's (CoK and CoB) or 5's Malekith. They're not putting a wound on Malekith (2+/2++ goes to 5+/2++). With impact hits add another base gone. They lose they run, Malekith wins again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'll challenge that unit with my Grey Seer. Grey Seer gets punked by Death Hag and Cauldron of Blood and more rats die to Malekith and knights. Again, crap LD they run in a few rounds of combat. I won't issue a challenge and just put 13 attacks on the seer. I should get 8 wounds through and he makes half his 4+ ward saves leaving him 4 unsaved wounds. Next round I go for the bell (if he's riding it) and should take that out. If not then it drops in the the 3rd round of combat. Again, the rat stats (because I have yet to see anyone put the bell in a unit of stormvermin) don't get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 How do you get poison and no armor save? If it is how I think it is, I've been doing it wrong..... Poison attacks for being a death hag and no armour saves for using the obsidian blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Grey Seer gets punked by Death Hag and Cauldron of Blood and more rats die to Malekith and knights. Again, crap LD they run in a few rounds of combat. I won't issue a challenge and just put 13 attacks on the seer. I should get 8 wounds through and he makes half his 4+ ward saves leaving him 4 unsaved wounds. Next round I go for the bell (if he's riding it) and should take that out. If not then it drops in the the 3rd round of combat. Again, the rat stats (because I have yet to see anyone put the bell in a unit of stormvermin) don't get the job done. I'm talking about the new Nurgle guys. Not the Dark Elves. I don't think highly of the new Nurgle unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Vampire, Nightmare, Quickblood, Shield Lance, Nightshroud, Vampire, Nightmare, Quickblood Lance shield, HA The other tricksters shard, Sword if anti heroes Wight king, Nightmare, BSB, ASF Sword, Shield Dawnstone 9 Black knights, Banner of the barrows FC Lose ASF, lose STR Bonus, 12 KB attacks, 6 asf str 7 attacks . Cok has been handled. I actually like this fight and this one greatly depends on character placement on challenges. Your unit charges. I issue a challenge with death hag. Now, this is where the fun begins. Which side of the cauldron are most of your characters on? If they are on malekiths side then he probably drops. If they're not on his side he probably lives. Malekith is immune to killing blow and will only suffer 1 wound and still gets a 2+ ward save agains the attacks. I only lose ASF for being in base contact with a nightshroud, correct? If so, not everyone loses ASF. This is a close fight and comes down to dice rolls I believe. Even at S4, I'm killing more black knights than black knights are killing me. I get more hits against the black knights which equates to more wounds. Why do I say I get more hits against them, because there will still be models who gain ASF against them. The only model I care about fighting malekith is the one holding the sword of anti heroes. There is also a chance I destroy the sword on a 4+ and it reverts to a mundane sword and now he gains his 2++ back. Again, I would really like to test play this combat out. If my unit charges. I'm pretty sure I win if I charge because the impact hits will make up for other loses. However, again, I would like to see how this goes. The only models losing S bonuses are the knights and nothing else. I think the nightshroud is a wasted item for fighting this unit as the nightshroud only effect models in base contact (I'm pretty sure it's models and not units). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 The CoB is the best thing, next to the Warlocks, for the DE. That said I still am not sure of the COK unit attached with it. Does it make the COK better, yes, but WE and Executioners I feel benefit more from it. In this scenario with the new WoC unit the downfall of the Executioners is they attack simultaneous. Still get the ASF rerolls though. Of course MN has found better use for the COK than me and mine still get hosed after I swing. Now what I think is missing in the cross thread topic is resource use. How many points of your army do you use to counter your opponent's unit. My issue with this COK build is that it takes 1000 points, give or take a hundred, to put together. The WoC unit is 40 a model so 20 would only cost 800. What would the outcome be if you pimped that unit with a 1000 points? Answer, if you read my batrep I put on Druchii.net, it may even be on here, you will see the outcome from my 2nd game against a horde of 40-50 nurgle warriors led by festus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Zombies lose in roughly 3 rounds of combat. I'm guessing I put between 20-30 wounds on them so with crumble the zombies aint [big bad swear word]. I take minimal, if any, loses. Zombies hit on 5's and wound on 4's (pretty sure they are S3). Skaven slaves will fail a LD test in roughly 3 rounds combat and I should take minimal, if any, loses. Slaves are hitting on 5's and wound on 4's (pretty sure they are S3). Goblins fail a LD test in roughly 3 rounds of combat and I should take minimal, if any, loses. Again, hitting on 5's and wound on 4's. Those units have crap stats, low LD, and don't do enough wounds back at me. In most cases, again, I'm doing 20-30 wounds per combat round to them and they may sneak a 1 or 2 through a round. Yes, precisely. In a typical game of 5 turns, when turns 1-2 are often not defined by combat, a unit of zombies sticking your mega unit for 2-3 turns is a trade I'll take all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Colossal K'daai Destroyer :P 395 points I don't know what that does but if the attacks aren't magical I'm pretty sure I can take it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Yes, precisely. In a typical game of 5 turns, when turns 1-2 are often not defined by combat, a unit of zombies sticking your mega unit for 2-3 turns is a trade I'll take all day long. We could test play it, but it's only 2-3 rounds of combat which equates to 1.5 player turns top. If I get lucky and hit and wound with 30-35 that's 2 rounds of combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I will gladly play this unit against any unit of the same points level. The only caviate would be that I would like to fight it out by you getting the charge and then by me getting the charge. I'm not saying this unit is unbeatable or unkillable. I just don't think people understand the destruction it lays down. I think the batrep is on these forums. In game 3 of the first and only tournament I took this to I had 4-5 knights, the cauldron, and malekith take a charge from 24-28 swordmasters and they happened to fail a fear test and when I got done rolling dice there was roughly 4-5 of them left. Again, there is a magic phase which can boost either side. I'm not taking into account any magic. However, if anyone does want to test play this fight, magic will be used because there's a reason malekith is in this unit and it's for word of pain and power of darkness. NtK was going to town on this unit tonight. He widdled it down with shooting and then charged in with a unit of CoK led by a dreadlord who was also accompanied by a master and supremse sorceress. He outnumbered me and after 2 rounds of combat it was malekith and the cauldron fight the general, bsb, and the unit standard bearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'm talking about the new Nurgle guys. Not the Dark Elves. I don't think highly of the new Nurgle unit. Gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 thats a brutal unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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