It's... The take on MexicanNinja's CoK unit thread!!!!!!!!! (Building Challenge)

[ratrek]

All the more reason for Hellen to not be on a Cauldron

[MexicanNinja]

I'd be down for that, and I only field blood knights for that very reason.

 

on a side note this build can take the charge (IMO) and really dish out the pain if they get the charge (yay lances).

Again, this combat comes down to dice rolls and if I can kill a few knights from impact hits.  I know I'm only looking at taking out 3 attacks if I only kill 3 knights from impact hits; however, if I get a good roll and you roll porely then we're looking at a significant impact on the fight because you are loosing 3 attacks per model dead from the front rank.

[MexicanNinja]

Giant unit of dwarf slayers?  

 

I'm not up to speed on WHFB, but 1200ish points of ~90+ slayers that get to swing back regardless of death sounds entertaining.  Salt and pepper with banner, giant slayers, etc. to taste if this would actually be feasible.

I'd be up for trying it out.  Do the hits go onto the models who kill the Slayers?  Malekith won't die from those deathblows and you should kill half the knights you hit and wound with them.  I doubt you kill the cauldron either as it's T6 and 4++.  You should kill the death hag though.  It would be interesting.

[Fixxer]

Its been fun thinking about this today while at work.

 

Again, I do agree that you dont take a unit like this head on, its never going to end well. When people deploy deathstars games have a tendency to turn into a skirmish. I do like that this deathstar tho, it is fast and can pull off some long charges making this unit more deadly than your typical infantry horde or gutstar. I would try not to fight it as best I could. 

 

As for units that are similar in points that could stand up to it.... The only few I could think of were:

- Horde of Khorne warriors/GW and Full command, with the frenzy banner, no characters. This would simply rely on steadfast and straight killing ability. 

- Dragon princes with the BOWD and 2-3 nobles with GWs. Deny magic weapon kills while killing your cauldron/RnF with GWs.  

 

Both of those could certainly dismantle your bus before their inevitable demise. 

[MexicanNinja]

Dave: Why would you clear out knights with Hellebron to start? Presuming she's not in a challenge, I would be more concerns with either killing the Malekith or the Cauldron and probably Malekith more. He can tank everything else in that unit with the 2++ vs non-magical attacks and you don't want him striking afterwards and potentially removing her crazy strength sword just by throwing a couple of dice and generating a hit.

 

Kill Malky, poison the fish out of the Cauldron and let the CoK  be ground down afterewards.

It was pointed out to me earlier that poison doesn't stack with magic attacks so neither hellebron or my death hag benefit from poison and the cauldron HAS to ALWAYS remain in the center of the unit in the front rank.  Until the knights are dead and Malekith is forced to the side of the cauldron, she can't attack Malektih.  Again, I'll use my challenge shenanigans to challenge her with my death hag.  Malektih also has a chance to take away those S10 attacks from his destroyer.  So, she could hit a ton and then be forced to a mundane weapon before rolling to wound and Malekith is back to his 2++.  Attacking knights with hellbron is the best option, IMO.  Hellbron dies during the first round of combat to my death hag and witches.

[thatdave]

I also cause terror and am ITP.  I don't care about fear or terror.  All of our attacks (not counting the cold ones) are simotaneously because we both have ASF.  Initiatve vaules do not matter if we both have ASF.  All ASF attacks are simo and niether of us get to re-roll.  Again, hellebron doesn't get to attack malekith and I'll try to draw her in with a challenge from my death hag.  You'd have to take the challenge with either the wtich champ or bsb.  If you deline I stick your BSB in back rank.  I've used hellebron several times and without a save other than the 5++ from the cauldron she dies to the death hag/cauldron witches attacks.  I'll ignore the master and just attack witches.  He has no magic weapon and is only S4 so I could care less about his attacks.  You also can't have armour of destiny and a dawnstone.

 

There are only 9 CoK's.  Malekith on Cold one + Death hag on Cauldron + 9 Cold One knights = 11 models in the unit

 

Yeah, as I just put up the Wailing Banner would be replaced with the Flaming Banner.

 

Why no AoD+Dawnstone?  Magic Armor and Talisman looks legal to me.

 

Correct, we all go simultaneously (I must have had ASF+ASL in my brain  ).  But Hellebron will smoke most of your Knights in all likelihood, and if you don't kill her then I suspect Malekith goes down next.  Any knights that happen to survive Hellebron are facing long odds surviving the Witches.  Even Malekith has his work cut out for him vs. the number of magical attacks he will be receiving I think.

 

Run the numbers, see where we land. 

[MexicanNinja]

Its been fun thinking about this today while at work.

 

Again, I do agree that you dont take a unit like this head on, its never going to end well. When people deploy deathstars games have a tendency to turn into a skirmish. I do like that this deathstar tho, it is fast and can pull off some long charges making this unit more deadly than your typical infantry horde or gutstar. I would try not to fight it as best I could. 

 

As for units that are similar in points that could stand up to it.... The only few I could think of were:

- Horde of Khorne warriors/GW and Full command, with the frenzy banner, no characters. This would simply rely on steadfast and straight killing ability. 

- Dragon princes with the BOWD and 2-3 nobles with GWs. Deny magic weapon kills while killing your cauldron/RnF with GWs.  

 

Both of those could certainly dismantle your bus before their inevitable demise. 

I'll have malekith direct attacks at the banner and try to destroy it on a 4++.  This will revert the banner to a mundane banner.  The specific example has been posted in a thread here on Ordo a while back.  The MRB states that if you kill the standard bearer that another model will pick it up.  It doesn't state that you can't direct attacks at the model.  Since I have to state which models are being hit, for the purposes of the destroyer, I will always put 2 attacks onto a rank and file HE monkey holding that banner to try and negate the 2++ from magic sources.

 

Yes, I agree, every example given will greatly reduce the number of models in this unit.  However, in 90% of these examples my opponent is only gaining the points for the cold one knighs while I am gaining the points from their unit + characters.  I will give this unit a 5% chance to be completely wiped due to dice rolls and another 5% for my opponent rolling a better flee roll than I roll pursue.  Of course, with examples from any undead or unbreakable unit, I will need to kill them to a man.

 

This now brings me to my next point.  I have left magic completely out of every equation I've posted.  The only spell malekith isn't casting while in combat is doombolt and I have only taken this on him once.  A WoP/black horror could devestate an enemy unit before combat even starts.  That's a possbile 20-40 S tests with a modifier between -1 and -3 to their S.  Sure, models can still take a ward save but how many of the above examples have a ward save outside the 5++ from the cauldron units?  What heppens when I get WoP off and a unit has their weapon skill decreased to the point that they need 5's to hit and possibly 5's or 6's to wound?

 

Now, many of you may be asking why would I even bring magic into this at all.  Well, malekith is a level 4 wizard and he has the ability to swing combats through many spells.  Heck, what happens when my opponents need to stop WoP and I'm able to get off soul stealer and keep pumping wounds back onto malekith?

 

Fixxer, thank you for positive feedback on this smaller deathstar.  The mobility is what I love about it.  I normally flank it with 2 chariots and if you want to add that to the mix in the following round of combat we can see what that leads to.  Up to 2D6+2 impact hits and more attacks.  Every wound produced from them would get the re-roll from the cauldron.

[MexicanNinja]

Yes, this was a discussion about this ONE unit. However, others have pointed out other parts of the game. Redirectors and avoidance mainly being the two most prevailant. However, most armies win the current meta through combat at some point during the course of the game. I have 3 units of 10 dark riders running around with repeater crossbows and a unit of 5 warlocks who can cast magic and get into combat with many units/models and win. Is my opponent going to shoot my knight unit, warlocks, chariots, dark riders, or bolt throwers before I get a magic/shooting phase. This army tosses a lot of threats out there. Again, what do you do when half my army arrives on your flank and is about to get into the rear of your army? This allows me to set up future supporting flank/rear charges for my knight unit.

 

I do NOT think this unit is unbeatable.  I'm not trying to say that there is NOTHING that will destroy it.  I just think most people underestimate it until it is too late.  Malekith has died, the death hag has died, the knights have died, so they can be killed.  I haven't seen a single unit beat this unit though (whether from magic, shooting, or melee).

 

It's a tough challenge and I would gladly let someone have a chance to kill this thing in one-on-one combat.  The only reason I started this unit was because I was told Malekith on a cold one in a unit of cold one knights would not work.  I then tossed the cauldron in there to add survivability to malekith and get a ward save on my knights from war machines.

 

The only difference between this list and the list I take without malekith is that I get a level 4 death sorceress who flys around on a dark pegasus rocking a 3++ vs magic and shooting, snipes characters and monsters, and gives me a +5 to dispel.  I also get to make my shadow wizard a level 2.

[ratrek]

I'd be interested to see this vs Pete's Wood Elves

[thatdave]

And, just as you keep Malekith on a corner to stay away from Hellebron/CoB, the unit standard would be placed to be out of BtB with Malekith.  

 

I'm guessing you run the unit 6 wide?  Maybe 5?  It is possible, depending on your formation, that if I get the charge I could put Malekith in BtB with Hellebron/CoB.

 

And the Destroyer ability is random, not automatic.  He has to hit (which he's very likely to do), then roll a 4+ to destroy anything, then it's a 50/50 to get the weapon (of which there are two, but they have one listing now where they were listed individually before so I'd say they are one item now).

[MexicanNinja]

I'd be interested to see this vs Pete's Wood Elves

I don't know who Pete is but I would love to play against his wood elves.  Out of all the armies, wood elves give me the most trouble because of their mobile shooting.  It really comes down to who has 1st turn.  The first round of shooting, whether it's them or me, has a huge impact on the rest of the game.  Against the wood elves it's all about who get to maximize the first round of shooting.   If he shoots my stuff down then I have less to shoot back and vise versa.

 

2 units of 7-10 waywatchers is much more threatening than 1-2 models in each unit.

[MexicanNinja]

And, just as you keep Malekith on a corner to stay away from Hellebron/CoB, the unit standard would be placed to be out of BtB with Malekith.  

 

I'm guessing you run the unit 6 wide?  Maybe 5?  It is possible, depending on your formation, that if I get the charge I could put Malekith in BtB with Hellebron/CoB.

 

And the Destroyer ability is random, not automatic.  He has to hit (which he's very likely to do), then roll a 4+ to destroy anything, then it's a 50/50 to get the weapon (of which there are two, but they have one listing now where they were listed individually before so I'd say they are one item now).

It's one weapon.  it's just like fencer's blades.  It's a paired magic weapon.  It comes down to how wide your front is for your unit.  You have to maximize for both units and if the cauldron is in the middle, well now you have to maximize from both sided of your formation because by only doing it from one side of the caludron you are not maximizing models in base to base.

 

Yes, it is 50/50 and I don't rely on it doing anything for me in any of my games.  I just have hopes that it will.

 

I am confused about why you would put the unit standard in a corner away from malekith.  That standard doen't effect me in the slightest.  What do you gain from flaming attacks?  I have no regen saves available.

[Romes]

1200 points?

 

85 bloodletters, horde (killing blow, unstable rather than breaking from wounds), magical attacks.

 

Malekith is exposed to a minimum of 4.5 killing blow hits per round, they also just straight up do magic wounds on 3s. knights are likewise uncomfortable, hag dies quickly.

 

85 is many

 

worse if daemons get the charge.

[thatdave]

I had a couple of post

 

It's one weapon.  it's just like fencer's blades.  It's a paired magic weapon.  It comes down to how wide your front is for your unit.  You have to maximize for both units and if the cauldron is in the middle, well now you have to maximize from both sided of your formation because by only doing it from one side of the caludron you are not maximizing models in base to base.

 

Yes, it is 50/50 and I don't rely on it doing anything for me in any of my games.  I just have hopes that it will.

 

I am confused about why you would put the unit standard in a corner away from malekith.  That standard doen't effect me in the slightest.  What do you gain from flaming attacks?  I have no regen saves available.

 

I had a couple of conflicting thoughts and posts in my brain.  I was thinking about the BoTWD from the HE suggestion and I had it in my brain that the BotEF would give me magical attacks.   

 

And we are in agreement about the paired magic weapons, but you are still only getting them on a 50/50 of a 50/50.  You only get the ability on a 4+, then it is a random item (she has two).

 

Corners count for maximizing frontage and, as I said, your formation would dictate how I would have to align.

 

 

1200 points?

 

85 bloodletters, horde (killing blow, unstable rather than breaking from wounds), magical attacks.

 

Malekith is exposed to a minimum of 4.5 killing blow hits per round, they also just straight up do magic wounds on 3s. knights are likewise uncomfortable, hag dies quickly.

 

85 is many

 

worse if daemons get the charge.

 

Malekith does not suffer from KB or multi wounds per his rules.  He takes only one wound instead.

[Romes]

Ha - good point

 

Ok, focus on immediately killing all the knights via KB and the hag via normal wounds/killing blow?

 

Also, even if not killing blow, every attack bypasses the 2+ ward and wounds on 3, just save him for last!

 

85 is still many!

[thatdave]

I can't believe I haven't been playing my Cauldron as causing Terror, and subsequently Fear.  How could I forget that.......

[thatdave]

Ha - good point

 

Ok, focus on immediately killing all the knights via KB and the hag via normal wounds/killing blow?

 

Also, even if not killing blow, every attack bypasses the 2+ ward and wounds on 3, just save him for last!

 

85 is still many!

 

lol, true!

 

This is actually good.  Even if you lose the first round of combat (which you most likely will), the Bloodletters would be Steadfast and are in turn likely to win subsequent rounds.  Toss in a Herald with the Hatred locus for rerolls of your own.  If you are getting the charge I would put some of the attacks into the Cauldron as strength 5 will give your best (early) chance to destroy it.  But subsequent volume of attacks should eventually do the job.  The CoB does get a 4++ though, which obviously makes it tougher to bring down.

 

I'd make the HoK a BSB, or even take a second as a BSB.  Obviously cuts down the starting number of Bloodletters, but greatly increases the chances of sticking around.

[MexicanNinja]

Ha - good point

 

Ok, focus on immediately killing all the knights via KB and the hag via normal wounds/killing blow?

 

Also, even if not killing blow, every attack bypasses the 2+ ward and wounds on 3, just save him for last!

 

85 is still many!

Are bloodletters S5? I don't have my book in front of me but I'm pretty sure he's my only T4 model in the army outside of monsters.

 

Daemons are a bit tricky.  I could win by 1 and then your roll cars.....I could win by 38 and you could rolls snakes.  How many attacks do you get in horder formation?  Do bloodletters have ASF, what is their WS, and what is the Initiative?  I don't play against many daemon armies, especially the ones who use bloodletters, so I am unfamilar with the stat line.

 

That seems like a solid fight.  Malekith's magic phase would be the equalizer.  How many could I kill with a WoP/Black Horror combo?

[thatdave]

Bloodletters (all Daemons of Khorne actually) get +1S on the charge.  Stats:

M4 WS5 S4/5 T3 I4 A1

 

Adding a Herald would give the ability to get Hatred or Frenzy.  They have a 6+/5++ with MR1 (could be MR2 from a Herald).  All attacks are magical, have the KB rule and they are ItP.

 

They would obviously suffer a bunch of wounds, but with the number of models in the unit could absorb them easily and retain Steadfast (LD7/8 with the Herald).  As long as boxcars didn't come up in the first round I think they would be in good shape.

 

I agree with you that Malekith's magic could be a huge factor.  But let's not forget that none of his magic is automatic and the opposition gets a chance to dispel/save against it.  And he could go down the hole if things go bad.  There's always that.....

[MexicanNinja]

Bloodletters (all Daemons of Khorne actually) get +1S on the charge.  Stats:

 

M4 WS5 S4/5 T3 I4 A1

 

Adding a Herald would give the ability to get Hatred or Frenzy.  They have a 6+/5++ with MR1 (could be MR2 from a Herald).  All attacks are magical, have the KB rule and they are ItP.

 

They would obviously suffer a bunch of wounds, but with the number of models in the unit could absorb them easily and retain Steadfast (LD7/8 with the Herald).  As long as boxcars didn't come up in the first round I think they would be in good shape.

 

I agree with you that Malekith's magic could be a huge factor.  But let's not forget that none of his magic is automatic and the opposition gets a chance to dispel/save against it.  And he could go down the hole if things go bad.  There's always that.....

 

That unit would be a solid challenge for this unit....I LOVE IT!!!!

 

Yes, I totally understand the magic phase is a variable that has no certains.  The only thing I am pointing out is that I have a level 4 wizard with +5 to cast and the bloodletter player is rolling straight dice (no wizard in the unit for bonuses to dispel).

[thatdave]

True, but the ward drops to 4+/maybe 3+ whenever that might come into play.

 

Also, the Heralds only confir one benefit at a time.  Hatred would be in effect until that Herald died, followed by the Frenzy and finally the MR2.

[ratrek]

Pete's Wood Elves the last time I listed to him run down the list when something like

 

Dual Lv4's in a Sister Bus

All Core and ambushing Glade Riders with poison arrows

2 or 3 Wild Rider units

Eagle, Treeman, Dual Waywatchers

 

He'd win the chaff war so it would be down to whether yours did enough before it died to allow the block to split up and kill things

[thatdave]

Bloodletters, the way I would put them forth:

 

Herald of Khorne, Exalted Locus of Wrath (Hatred)

Herald of Khorne, Greater Locus of Fury (Frenzy), BSB

59 Bloodletters, full command, Standard of Discipline (+1 LD)

 

1231 points

 

The unit would have Hatred until that HoK died, then they would have Frenzy.  

 

That is a lot of Killing Blow attacks!

[MexicanNinja]

Pete's Wood Elves the last time I listed to him run down the list when something like

 

Dual Lv4's in a Sister Bus

All Core and ambushing Glade Riders with poison arrows

2 or 3 Wild Rider units

Eagle, Treeman, Dual Waywatchers

 

He'd win the chaff war so it would be down to whether yours did enough before it died to allow the block to split up and kill things

What lores are he running.

 

I don't think you're correct in that he automatically wins the chaff war.  Again, I've played against many wood elf players and it has always come down to who has first turn.  If I can crank out over 70 shots in the first round of the game then I think that changes things a little bit.

 

Sure, I don't hit with everything, sure I don't wound with everything, but i'm willing to bet that against a T3 army with no saves or very little protection from shooting, that I could do enough wounds to make them not want to get so close during the next round and I should have a few units of dark riders and possibly the witches ready to charge is moves aren't made that my opponent really didn't want to use.

[ratrek]

I've seen the matchup run enough times (though admittedly without Malky and using Peg Dreads instead) to be confident in that statement.

 

The Glade Riders don't start on the board, so it doesn't matter about 1st turn and Waywatchers in cover effectively don't care about all your crossbows. Once you move and shoot with their skirmish cover and funky cloak things, you'll be hitting on 6's, 7s with repeating shots.

 

Typically he runs Dark and High. He spams out High spells early game to build up wound shields incase someone catches him late game and then Dark spells to finish things off mid to late game and garner more points.