AgentP Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 There is a tomb king rule which says that characters on chariots can join chariot units. But now that TK and VC are mushed together as undead legion, can my tomb king chariot unit be joined by a vamp on a coven throne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 The vamp doesn't have that rule, so don't think they would be allowed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 **EDIT**I thought this was an army wide rule, I was wrong. The Nagash book says to not count army wide rules appearing in VC or TK, and replace with the army wide rules in Nagash. But the "Rode to War" rule is actually under the chariot entry. It says "Characters in a tomb kings army that have a chariot, can join a unit of skeleton chariots" So, there is no "tomb kings army" anymore, under the Nagash rules (and fluff frankly). So either this rule applies to any undead legion character on a chariot, or frankly it applies to no one at all, even a tomb prince on a chariot, because he's not in a tomb king army, he's in an undead legion army. Huh. No idea on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I can say that I really hope either GW FAQs this (yeah, dream on) or the internet community consensus is that vamps on chariots can join as well. It would suddenly make the coven throne much more viable. I'm including one in my Lahmian army anyway, but it sure would be nice to have it be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Since the rule in question is in the unit entry and not in the "Army Special Rules" section of the army book I would say that you could use the special rule. The wording is ponderous though, due to the fact that it does stipulate "Tomb Kings army". The book did come out before the Nagash book, so that is easier to overlook. And from a fluff standpoint I definitely see the reason for characters to continue to join the units while on chariots. So basically, I would definitely not have a problem with characters joining the chariot unit. Yet rules as written it would be forbidden. [big bad swear word] it. Do it anyways. Or ask the tournament director before the tournament how they are going to rule it, just to prevent an issue later. Or... [big bad swear word] it. Do it anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talapas Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't like it. Just my personal bias, but End Times doesn't erase Tomb Kings as an army, but rather introduces a new Army which uses models from both tk and vc. But, if someone really wanted to try it, I wouldn't raise a fit over it either. If your opponents are cool with it, go bananas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't like it. Just my personal bias, but End Times doesn't erase Tomb Kings as an army, but rather introduces a new Army which uses models from both tk and vc. But, if someone really wanted to try it, I wouldn't raise a fit over it either. If your opponents are cool with it, go bananas. Do you think I can put a prince on a chariot in a unit of chariots in a undead legions army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talapas Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Do you think I can put a prince on a chariot in a unit of chariots in a undead legions army? I see where you are going. Yeah. I do, because he is at least still out of the tk book. The coven throne doesn't feel raw or rai to me, but like I said, my personal opinion and I wouldn't grouse about it if my opponent wanted to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatdave Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I think, as the majority if the internet community seems to view the End Times as a campaign that will lend it's history to the 9E and not an army book per se, the point is moot.Until then I say no way, as it says TK army and the ET:N replaces army wide rules. Doesn't seem right to me to be cherry picking rules. There's some saying about having your cake and eating it too that may apply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Well, that is certainly a defensible point, and I can't say I disagree with your analysis. But that same logic means none of the magic items in either the VC book or the TK book can be used in undead legions, as both those magic item sections begin with the phrase, "On the follow pages are magic items available to the [tomb kings / vampire counts] army." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Total newb type question but for the items does the undead legion say make your army selections as normal from the two books? It would allow for the items that way, otherwise yeah by reading would say no joining chariot units nor fancy items. Remember you still get good general items from the main book and a much better magic lore from my understanding. Like they said cherry picking should be avoided you get mixed units at the cost of more specialized gear and options gives it a unique flavor instead of just being the best of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 It looks like you may get hosed on some options AgentP. However, I don't believe it stops your tomb princes from joining skeleton chariots from the tomb kings book. I also do not think it stops you from taking magic items. If you were to say they were unallowed to take magic items from their respective books then you could also argue that vampire character cannot purchase powers. Could you bring your end times rule book on Sunday? I'd like to read the rules from there. Who knows maybe undead legion forces are just screwed that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 To be honest I hope not but that could be what they used to "balance" the recombination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 The End Times book states that you do not use the Army Special rules from the Vamp book or the TK book. I don't have the TK one, but if the chariot ability is in the army special rules, then it is lost in the new undead list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 ...it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 It's not. As I said above, it's a rule in the chariot unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 Yes, and it states "in a tomb kings army" which the new undead army is not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 Yes, and it states "in a tomb kings army" which the new undead army is not. Yes, I believe I also discussed that earlier in this thread too. So by that reading, you would also agree that none of the magic items in the TK or VC book are useable by an undead legion? I consider this a pretty big deal. If "in a tomb kings army" or "in a vampire counts army" does not apply to undead legion, then a huge array of magic items are off limits, and undead legion become kinda problematic, being stuck with just BRB items. From my own personally perspective, I need to iron this out with people's opinions before I invest time and energy building an undead legion army. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 This end times thing is an undead legion not either of the book armies. With nagash and a host of other characters a lack of magic items actually makes sense cuz the powerful enough to wield those guys would be harder for nagash to control and it leaves more points you know for the "legion " of little guys to fill out the army. Btw adding what I know from 40k as I'm coming from that back to fantasy, 40k supplements are strictly forbidden using the relics (magic item analogs) from the base book with the new list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 well the ET book does say: "you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either VC or TK books" So that might open the door for the use of the magic items. The problem with that special rule for the chariots, is that it specifically states "tomb kings army" as opposed to a more general term. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 The way I read it, the options from the book are still available as are the unit specific rules. The only rules which are ignored are the special rules for the armies. Tomb kings or princes on a chariot may still join a unit of chariots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 Yes, I believe I also discussed that earlier in this thread too. So by that reading, you would also agree that none of the magic items in the TK or VC book are useable by an undead legion? I consider this a pretty big deal. If "in a tomb kings army" or "in a vampire counts army" does not apply to undead legion, then a huge array of magic items are off limits, and undead legion become kinda problematic, being stuck with just BRB items. From my own personally perspective, I need to iron this out with people's opinions before I invest time and energy building an undead legion army. Personally I would rather just have the various unit special rules stay as they are ..just being able to be used with the army from the book they are in.Seems like any other route is going to open a can of worms....like that never happens with GW,lol. It seems to fit the fluff better as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 I would personally be fine with that ruling. I'm just concerned some tournament organizers and some players will say that the rule specifies "tomb king army" and this army is not that, but is Undead Legion. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether every time I play this army I'm going to have to justify taking magic items, and in a much less important manner, whether I can put my character on the throne in a unit of chariots. Having to get a rules ruing before every game or every tournament sounds daunting. It also sounds difficult to plan what you will or will not be able to field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Wanted to point out one other thing on the subject here... Under the Undead Legions Army Special Rules (Pg 18 in book II) it states to replace the Army Special Rules for the TK and VC army books with new Special Rules listed below...I think this is important because its actually covering what rules are changed in what books, as in we still use all the other rules that pertain to each book as they are written,TK characters still can only use TK Relics,TK specific abilities...VC Vampires can only take their special abilities and such. Replacing each books Army Special Rules is one thing but it doesn't say any were to replace all instances of "Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts" with Undead Legions instead. The way I read it and UL army is a "Combined Force" of TK and VC army units...much like Battle Brothers Alliances are in 40k. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Well I hear what you're saying, that is an ad hoc interpretation of the text. You are interpreting Tomb Kings Army to mean one thing when it occurs at a certain point, and a different thing when it occurs at a different point in the book. Now you may be right, but it has to be acknowledged that interpretation is logically inconsistent. And fluff wise, the end times has brought the undead into one big happy family. If a tomb prince and necrotect can lead a group of zombies, or a necromancer can bunker in an archer unit, then there is no difference with a cross-book chariot joining a chariot unit. That in fact seems to exactly what the fluff encourages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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