HeroZero Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 Is it just me that rerolls have gotten out of hand. All elves: ASF Dark elves: rerolls of 1 to wound Dwarves: sometimes hatred Empire: hatred priests VC: spell ASF/rerolls Beasts: hatred 2/3 time I may be missing some. This is nuts. Why even have elite stats when everyone rerolls everything?! Armour has never been a solution since only 1+ really matters High strength? Most rerolls are elves so str5/6 is sufficient Bodies? Gotta have dudes standing to swing. Initiative? Yep. So what brings cheap wounds with high str and initiatives? Skaven. Yes. Skaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 I don't think the re-rolls are out of hand. Elves are mostly S3 so against anything T4 or above they still struggle to wound. I have had much success with 3+/4+ armour saves against S3 and lower. I would rather have high strength or toughness over the re-rolls. If my dwarfs who don't have hatred are in combat with some elves (outside of a horde of witches) I am going to bring the pain in return. Initiative depends on the army. Again, with my Dwarfs, I don't care because I have survivability through T4 and decent army saves on my main units, and I swing back with hurt. What brings cheap wounds with high strength? Skaven, really? I played skaven and outside of stormvermin, Rat Ogres, and the HPA, what other cheap wounds and high S are you getting? I'd take a unit of orc savages or black orcs over anything in the skaven book all day long. I'd have to say the sabretusk fits the bill. S4, 3 attacks, W2, T4. How many of us has had something bad happen to us from a single sabretusk? I know I have. I think the above points about ASF and hatred are solid points but what are you comparing them to? It all depends on the match-ups. Heck, even as I am learning how to play Ogres, I have a ton of experience against them and most of those ASF armies aren't taking out a unit of 8 maneaters or a nice block of ogres (bulls, or ironguts) in a single round because of the T4. Sure, the Ogres need 4's when swinging back but you are almost getting more wounds on the T3 armies, then if you add in a failed fear test every now and then the odds swing. Now, don't get me wrong. I love playing my Dark Elves knowing that unless I'm playing an ASF army I am re-rolling just about everything in combat. It's great. However, at the end of the day, I'm mostly a S3 army and unless I roll a ton of 1's when rolling to wound, I don't get those re-rolls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted October 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 What str 3 are you seeing on elves? Poison, Halberds and stupidly easy to access buffs to strength all blow that out of the water. I havent fought a basic strength 3 troop in so long I'm not sure they exist anymore Dwarves do have hatred against a lot. So its worth noting there. Also str 5/6 is almost comically easy for them to get, 5+ armor is irrelevant in almost every game I've played. Having played ogres a lot I can say its fairly common to lose a rank to elves prior to swings. It's why I quit them. (Only time I didn't is in blocks of 12 which look deathstar) And yes you listed the units I would consider awesome for skaven minus the HPA. OnG have an option but are so unreliable and have ass initiative. Stormvermin deny asf rerolls. Which is comically good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 Yes, there are buffs and strengths; however, I am just talking about straight troops and no augments to them. I believe the Toughness is the most important stat in the game. I would rather have T4 over S4 in combat. Now, let's take away the warrior priest from Empire and ASF from the elves. They become trash, in nearly every case. Empire state troops are just garbage and a warrior priest makes them decent, not good, only decent. Take away ASF from all three elf armies and they are extremely overscoasted troops who die in droves (T3 with crap armour saves) and won't put any kind of hurt out. Dwarves have guaranteed hatred against general's and two armies. You can't rely on them rolling a 5-6 for army wide hatred. Out of 8 games I played with them I rolled a 5-6 once. As far as stormvermin being awesome, no I don't think so. They're decent. They die fast and are pretty heavy costed for what they do, IMO. Stormvermin don't deny ASF rerolls. They are only I5 and dark elf (which I assume is the same for woodies and the goody-two-shoes) are all I5 except for their mounts. You just have to be equal or above for the re-roll. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 I have long held that in the land of Warhammer, the re-roll is king. I tend to agree that re-rolls have become a bit over-saturated due to army power creep. I think it would be very interesting if re-rolls require you to re-roll all dice, not just failed dice. Thus, it gives you a chance to mitigate chance - those times when you roll 2 successes on 10 dice and end up at the lower part of the bell curve, but it doesn't de facto give you more dice to roll by allowing you to keep the first batch of successes and get a do-over on the failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarlordGhrom Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 I think every army needs to be able to buy a Mr Lucky. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackvigil Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 In my experience, rerolls Clown high stats. It's kind of sad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 In my experience, rerolls Clown high stats. It's kind of sad... Yes, and I've also had experience were it didn't matter how many hits I rolled because I couldn't make a wound roll and didn't roll enough 1's for re-rolls to matter. You get the games when re-rolls make the game go your way and you get the ones where they just don't matter. Heck, I've even had the ones where the re-rolls made it fair game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 I don't really have an issue with re-rolls. When they're built into units they're point costed out, and they tend to reduce variance. Yes a witch elf has poison and lots of re-rolls in a cauldron unit. It's also an 11 point naked elf, what you're paying for is the reliable high number of wounds being put out. Generally re-rolls are on the stuff with the lowest base statline. The only time re-rolls feel like they're "to much" is when they can be used in a way that the unit is not correctly costed for. For example, murderous prowess on a Dread Lord doesn't really increase it's point cost, and at S4 the actual increase in performance is negligible, but when combined with giant blade, you're either re-rolling all fails or on a 3+ re-roll ones, which significant'y improves reliability and you're not really paying for it (note that that you DO pay for it in Swedish!) I don't like Dwarf re-rolls though. Not because they're too good, I don't think they are, but because it is a power difference you pay for and it means in a third of the games your fighting undercosted troops and a third of the games you're fighting overcosted troops. Re-rolls are great when they make things less swingy, not more swingy. Also, I agree that elite stats often Clown re-rolls. This weekend I had 3 SC (with 2 in the front rank and one in the back due to some shenanigans on my part of prevent another charge) get charged by 40 halberds and a warpriest in the flank, he got the re-roll to wound off too. S5 T4 6 attacks a model 1+ armor save. I won combat. Sure SC are really good against infantry, but they're sort of the perfect example of re-rolls not being enough. Unless you can punch through the armor, all the re-rolls in the world aren't going to help. This doesn't mean they're not good, they're just not the one best thing ever, they're a super useful tool that (except for dwarves) are generally part of the cost of the unit. TLDR: much word vomit - re-rolls feel balanced. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 I couldn't agree with you more Romes, great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 If you compare raw stats without equip. The math is clear. A unit with WS4 S3 T3 re-rolling hits and rerolling to wound rolls of 1. Will almost always beat a unit with WS3 S4 T4. Proving that superior WS + re-rolls Clown 1 extra toughness and strength. However if you take away the re-rolling to wound rolls of one. You end up just about dead even every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 I also agree with Romes regarding game balance. Furthermore I don't think it's about "are re-rolls greater than stats" because that's just entirely dependent on the details. Assuming the balance is attained through points cost, comp, and player regulation (the most important part), then It's important to understand what the impact is of re-rolls vs. superior stats. Re-rolls increase the average wounds result of a combat, and furthermore reduce standard deviation because effective sample size goes up (i.e. re-rolling reduces variance from the average). For example, rolling two 6 sided dice gives a range from 2-12 and an average of 7, with a much less chance of a 2 or a 12 than a 6 or 8. However rolling a single 12 sided die (and discarding 1's for arguments sake) gives the same range and average, but a 2 is just as likely as a 6 (or 7 for that matter). Stats increase the average wounds result dramatically, but as we all know they don't help with the standard deviation issue like re-rolls do. For example we all know that S6 attacks will average 5/6 wounds per hit vs. T4 or lower. However we've also all seen the relatively common occurrence of a result closer to 1/6 (when a bunch of 1s show up in the to-wound roll). Personally I like re-rolls because they improve the predictability of the outcome of the dice part of the game, which lends itself to a more controlled game, the kind I generally prefer. Same reason I love the BSB rules in 8th, allowing ALL Ld tests to be re-rolled. I don't mind failing Ld tests against a 7 or 8, but I absolutely can't stand failing a key stupidity check on Ld10 which "shouldn't" happen. Same goes for "seize the initiative" type rolls which happen 1 in 6 an have a huge effect on the game: hate 'em. Rather than worry about balance (which isn't affected by re-rolls any more than it is by any other mis-costed attribute in the game), maybe if you don't like re-rolls it just means that you just prefer the more random, less controlled style of game (e.g. Goblin army) instead of a tightly controlled, predictable game (e.g. Dark Elves). Just a thought! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 Re-rolling Ld tests is quite possibly the worst thing to come out of 8th edition. The probability of failing Ld tests without a BSB Ld Value --- Probability of Passing Test ----- 10 --- 33/36, or 91.67% ------ 9 --- 30/36, or 83.33% ------ 8 --- 26/36, or 72.22% ------ 7 --- 21/36, or 58.33% ------ 6 --- 15/36, or 41.67% ------ 5 --- 10/36, or 27.78% ------ 4 --- 6/36, or 16.67% These odds are fine the way they are. Adding in re-rolls on an already 83 to 91 % success rate is just ridiculous. Dont get me wrong certain elements of psychology used to be over kill. But this all but removed one of the key elements of the game. It left things like fear and terror useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 Without derailing this thread too much, I have to strongly disagree about the BSB being the worst thing in 8th. It's the miscast table, it's a joke and can be used to great advantage while in combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 Sorry if that came off too rough. I just really miss psychology being more impactful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 Sorry if that came off too rough. I just really miss psychology being more impactful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Sorry if that came off too rough. I just really miss psychology being more impactful. I understand what you mean but the fear/terror bombs which existed in 7th were over the top. To me, it feels more meaningful when an opponent fails a LD test. If the enemy makes the mistake by not putting his troops within BSB range, then it's our duty to make them regret that decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 That's my point with all the immune to psych, cold blooded, steadfast, skaven rank Ld bonus, stubborn, etc. and Ld 9 to 10. Even if they get out of range of a BSB they are probably immune or have 90% chance of passing. In all of 8th edition I have witnessed 2 failed Terror test. That's hundreds of games. My point is that if anything is out of balance in 8th it's psychology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 That's my point with all the immune to psych, cold blooded, steadfast, skaven rank Ld bonus, stubborn, etc. and Ld 9 to 10. Even if they get out of range of a BSB they are probably immune or have 90% chance of passing. In all of 8th edition I have witnessed 2 failed Terror test. That's hundreds of games. My point is that if anything is out of balance in 8th it's psychology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Well looking at two of my Armies (O&G and DE) I don't see a turning back and the army books are balancing the Leadership issues. If it reverted back the Orcs would be 100% worthless, they struggle with leadership issues as it is. Now the Dark Elves would be at the other end, between the Bloodwrack Shrine, Kharibdyss and the lore of Dark Magic no one outside of the undead would stand a chance. But I guess the DE could use a boost. Going back can not happen, the current army books are designed with 8th ed in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 That's my point with all the immune to psych, cold blooded, steadfast, skaven rank Ld bonus, stubborn, etc. and Ld 9 to 10. Even if they get out of range of a BSB they are probably immune or have 90% chance of passing. In all of 8th edition I have witnessed 2 failed Terror test. That's hundreds of games. My point is that if anything is out of balance in 8th it's psychology. Again, I am going to disagree with you. Psychology is not out of balance and I have yet to hear anyone but you say it is. Only witnessing only 2 failed Terror tests in "hundreds of games" just isn't believable, sorry man. I've seen tons of game changes failed LD tests. I've failed back-to-back LD10 stupidity tests many times with my cold one chariots. I've failed LD 10 re-rollable frenzy tests. I've seen high elf swordmaster fail a fear test with a re-roll. Sorry, I just don't believe that out of hundreds of games you have only seen 2 failed terror tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 8th editions's treatment of fear was a reaction to the treatment of it in 7th. And it is an overreaction. In 7th it was overpowered, in 8th it is neutered. I agree that fear and terror do not deliver on their points values. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted October 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hyperbole is strong on the net MN My proposed fix for fear solves a few problems and brings back some of that flavor of fear/terror. My "fix" Fear: -1 to LD to models in BTB Terror: -2 LD to models in BTB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hyperbole is strong on the net MN My proposed fix for fear solves a few problems and brings back some of that flavor of fear/terror. My "fix" Fear: -1 to LD to models in BTB Terror: -2 LD to models in BTB That's not bad and reasonable. I Just know if the BSB rerolls and stubborn were gone from 8th the balance that does exist will be thrown out the window and the currently strong armies will feel the change the least. (The Elves high leadership and Chaos' many way that ignores leadership tests will laugh at the other books.) Finding a good solution without throwing some armies under the bus would be hard to do in this type of game. And armies that already suffer from leadership issues are not tier one armies. So yeah, the DoC will win more games due to fear and terror but they already are a strong as heck army. Empire will have some units that won't be affected as much but in all they will suffer more than most and they don't need to be softened up anymore. (Do you really want to see more Steam Tanks, Knights and Demis? Because if you make the other units suffer more the reaction will be to take the units that are not affected by leadership tests.) I would rather continue bringing state troops than to drop them for a bigger Knight bus with a Grand Master that is ITP. And we would absolutely do it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Again, I am going to disagree with you. Psychology is not out of balance and I have yet to hear anyone but you say it is. Only witnessing only 2 failed Terror tests in "hundreds of games" just isn't believable, sorry man. I've seen tons of game changes failed LD tests. I've failed back-to-back LD10 stupidity tests many times with my cold one chariots. I've failed LD 10 re-rollable frenzy tests. I've seen high elf swordmaster fail a fear test with a re-roll. Sorry, I just don't believe that out of hundreds of games you have only seen 2 failed terror tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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