Blackvigil's Warriors of Chaos: Things I learned, and planning for next OFCC

[blackvigil]

This year was my first year playing in the OFCC: Fantasy. I was a 40k Captain the previous year, but I figured it was time for a change. Herozero hooked me up with some models, and I bought more stuff that I thought was cool, then painted it all up. My sole motivation was cool looking models... So, I played 4 games of Fantasy before the tournament, and just dove into it. All of my opponents were really cool dudes, with great attitudes. Everyone was awesome, helping me out with rules and strategy. I think the community for Fantasy is my favorite part of it all. Everyone was chilled out and acted like adults. I like that a lot.

 

On to my army. I posted a picture below, just because. I went with an iron and bronze theme, because I like semi-realistic themes. I also painted the horses natural colors, for the same reason. As a general rule, I enjoy quality over quantity. I don't like batch painting junky troopers that die in droves. So I went with a mostly cavalry army. I love the models for Knights, so I got a few boxes. I kitbashed my characters from those boxes, skullcrusher bits, and stuff I got from Ed. It turned out alright. I feel like I got about an 80% paintjob done. I could do more, with more time. That brings me to thoughts of the future... I am going to really get it done right for next year. I have already started working on some of my models that turned out merely mediocre.

Mechanically speaking, there were a few things that just drove me nuts about Fantasy, so I am seeking input on improvements. It drives me *nuts* when my knights charge a unit, kill some guys, take almost no wounds, but still lose combat. 2 out of 5 games, my knights killed more guys than my opponent, but lost, failed leadership, then got run down and killed. It seems super bogus that I take no wounds in a fight, but run away and die. Ok, enough griping... I am thinking that a hero with a Crown of Command is in order, since that brick of 10 knights is kind of the center of the army. They are my favorite models, so I need to find a way to make them work. I considered Mark of Slaanesh, then a hero with the Pendant. That wouldn't give Stubborn, but a single dice ought to give me similar odds. I also considered the banner than gives bonus leadership. A BSB in the squad is a given, even though the rerolls didn't save me last time. Thoughts on how I can get my knights to stick around?

What is the community consensus on marks? I only talk to Ed/Herozero about Fantasy, so I am curious what everyone else thinks. I ran a 50/50 Khorne/Nurgle list in OFCC, but I was thinking it would be cool to have an army with all of the marks. None of my units have a paint job that forces them to be one mark or another. Of course, my skullcrushers are khorny. :) This might sound odd, but I think all of the gods are cool, and I have a tough time deciding on one thing. Would it be considered lame if I represented all of them? 
If that's cool, I have some fun ideas. If not, I will figure it out. Leaning toward Slaanesh if I have to pick only one. I hope there are allies in 9th, so I could ally in some DE cultist guys. Seems cool...

I am looking for a "centerpiece" type model for next year. I am not planning to run the Manticore Lord, due to being a bit under-performing for the points spent. The mount got killed pretty much every game. So, I am planning on running a Demon Prince. I think it's a pretty cool chance for a big centerpiece model. Does anyone have any ideas for a cool non-standard model? My favorite model in my army is my reaper looking sorcerer. I dig the death theme. I wouldn't mind that kind of thing for a DP model. Please post any links to third part models, ideas, or conversions.

 

Thanks for any thoughts, input, or commentary on WoC or anything I said here. Anything helps.

 

 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well keep in mind next year will most likely be Swedish Comp for OFCC, though still consider it a rumor till the official announcement is made, so lists may very well be toned down a bit. Also the reason you are losing is because of Combat Res. This is what you need to improve, not so much in need of improving your leadership or becoming stubborn.

 

Now if you are going to run almost no Rank and File units CR can be tricky to get. Killing is always good for CR but a Standard and BSB in that unit would be better. Now if you can get a combo charge with a Chariot than CR will swing heavily in your favor.

 

This is something I am still working on and for my current army it is huge.

 

If you have a chance swing on by WOW on Sundays, and drive Herozero, and the guys can teach you the art of CR.

[blackvigil]

For sure. I wouldn't mind working on some CR-fu with you. :) I am pretty novice with the rules, but 5 games in a row with pros helped me get a good start. lol

[HeroZero]

Remember a ranked unit with 3 ranks, and a Standard automatically is at +4 CR prior to kills.

 

Your knightss generate + 3 static CR prior to kills.

(standard, BSB, one rank.)

 

Which automatically puts you one down prior to kills.

 

To offset this

Charge grants +1

Flank +1

Rear +2

 

My personal favorite is War Banner magic item.

It grants +1 CR always

 

So now you are tied prior to kills.

 

Maximizing kills? I've heard chaos had SOME skills in CC ...

[Murphy'sLawyer]

For sure. I wouldn't mind working on some CR-fu with you. :) I am pretty novice with the rules, but 5 games in a row with pros helped me get a good start. lol

Well I am not the master but a student on here. Now Mexicaninja Kungfu is strong along with many others on here and when you have a question or tactic ask away. I do all the time and hopefully MN will be helping me with my O&G army tactics. (Trust WoC is a strong book and be glad you are not running a difficult army.)

 

But you will need what we call Chaff/redirectors/Warmachine hunters. Expensive units will not cut it and cannons and other Warmachine are going to rip your high armor guys up while your opponent will be throwing cheap fast units in front of your big boys as he picks on one unit at a time.

 

What are you taking for you core?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Maximizing kills? I've heard chaos had SOME skills in CC ...

Chaos good at CC? Is the Pope Catholic? Is water wet? Is Nurgle cool with cooties?

 

Hero Zero pointed out a fun fact. Thanks Captain Obvious. (Man that's two in one day.)

[TJP]

..

Mechanically speaking, there were a few things that just drove me nuts about Fantasy, so I am seeking input on improvements. It drives me *nuts* when my knights charge a unit, kill some guys, take almost no wounds, but still lose combat. 2 out of 5 games, my knights killed more guys than my opponent, but lost, failed leadership, then got run down and killed. It seems super bogus that I take no wounds in a fight, but run away and die. Ok, enough griping... I am thinking that a hero with a Crown of Command is in order, since that brick of 10 knights is kind of the center of the army. They are my favorite models, so I need to find a way to make them work. I considered Mark of Slaanesh, then a hero with the Pendant. That wouldn't give Stubborn, but a single dice ought to give me similar odds. I also considered the banner than gives bonus leadership. A BSB in the squad is a given, even though the rerolls didn't save me last time. Thoughts on how I can get my knights to stick around?

 

What is the community consensus on marks? I only talk to Ed/Herozero about Fantasy, so I am curious what everyone else thinks. I ran a 50/50 Khorne/Nurgle list in OFCC, but I was thinking it would be cool to have an army with all of the marks. None of my units have a paint job that forces them to be one mark or another. Of course, my skullcrushers are khorny. :) This might sound odd, but I think all of the gods are cool, and I have a tough time deciding on one thing. Would it be considered lame if I represented all of them? 

If that's cool, I have some fun ideas. If not, I will figure it out. Leaning toward Slaanesh if I have to pick only one. I hope there are allies in 9th, so I could ally in some DE cultist guys. Seems cool...

 

I am looking for a "centerpiece" type model for next year. I am not planning to run the Manticore Lord, due to being a bit under-performing for the points spent. The mount got killed pretty much every game. So, I am planning on running a Demon Prince. I think it's a pretty cool chance for a big centerpiece model. Does anyone have any ideas for a cool non-standard model? My favorite model in my army is my reaper looking sorcerer. I dig the death theme. I wouldn't mind that kind of thing for a DP model. Please post any links to third part models, ideas, or conversions.

 

Thanks for any thoughts, input, or commentary on WoC or anything I said here. Anything helps.

 

Tim of the Chaos Dragon/Giant/volcano Warriors here :)

 

Yea, you have to be careful about what you charge with knights. Crown of Command would make them quite tough, though. Taking the leadership banner on the unit is good if your general is in the unit, but probably not the best (and not really needed if you plan on taking a Demon Prince). If a unit is troubling you (big tough units like other Warriors, buffed-up Saurus, big blocks of dwarves), you'll need to combo charge it with the Prince, or a chariot, if you can't get them in the side, and regardless you're unlikely to break them in one round.

 

Are you running Ensorcelled Weapons or lances? The strength 5 all the time is worth it, I think.

 

As for marks, do what you like! I think it would be awesome to have all 4 represented. The End Times stuff that's coming out next looks to be Nurgley (booo) but we can hope for other things, as well as demons/beasts combined at some point like the Tomb Kings/Vampires. We'll have to see how it turns out.

 

As far as centerpieces, a Demon Prince could make a great one. The stock GW kit is not particularly leaning towards any god. There are some Nurgley ones, like the Ultraforge Plague Demon (I think Rudra has that one as a Doombull in his Plague Beasts army). 

 

Other cool models that make generally neat Princes are some from the Hordes line (like this one), or more weird or disturbing ones from Hell Dorado like this or this.

 

There's probably tons more. Can't wait to see what you come up with!

[MexicanNinja]

Blackvigil, hey man, glad you made it to he fantasy portion of these forums.  You should try and check out one of the escalation nights with HeroZero.  You could, and would, learn a lot during those game nights.  Lots of experienced players with many helpful hints, stories of mistakes crazy games, cool-unique armies, and just a ton of fun and a ton of warhammer knowledge.

 

I was also one of your opponents who ran down your knights.  You then proceeded to have your way with my army as your juggernaughts just ran through my entire left flank and I hid my rangers in a building.  I was playing the dwarf army with the huge block of blue ironbreakers.  Like it was stated above, pre CR calculations are huge.

 

However, here's a more direct answer to your question about why knights seem to bounce off infantry so fast.  This rules for cavalry changed between the last edition and this one.  Cavalry were out of control in the last edition of warhammer.  A unit of 5 knights were able to charge a block of 20 infantry (20 was once the common number for a larger unit), kill 3-7 models, then run the infantry down.  Something had to change in Warhammer with allowing a unit of 5 models with great movement who would just charge large blocks of infantry, take little to no damage, and then run them down and get ready to do the same thing.

 

What the mechanics change did was make the cavalry the hammer and infantry the anvil.

 

The idea is to have your anvil hold something in place and then slam in with your hammer to swing the combat.  Now, it's not to say that a well placed charge to a flank or rear with a unit of chaos knights isn't going to do damage.

 

Now, let's move on to steadfast.  As long as you have one more complete rank than your opponent you will be steadfast and take your break test on your unmodified LD.  That's also a huge thing.  If your opponent is pretty confident that they'll be steadfast after the impact and they have something to counter your knights charge (one of their hammers), then you should think about the bait he has given you.  Is the charge worth it to be out of place next turn?  If the answer is no then you don't take the bait and reposition for a counter charge of your own.

 

I could go on and on with these tactics but I find it harder to understand without some visuals for these types of things.  I will say, chaos knights are one of the scariest cav units on the move.  They continue to hit hard after the first round of combat whereas most other knight units are counting on the charge to do most damage before they revert from the +2S from the lance back to their base S value.

[Fixxer]

. (Trust WoC is a strong book and be glad you are not running a difficult army.)

I dont agree with this at all. 

 

There is a lot of strategy in being mobile and knowing where to attack and when.

 

WM can decimate WoC as well as a few good spells because you simply dont have many wounds on the table. The lack of static res will always be a problem, they must generate wounds, they are an army without rerolls so whiffing does happen, all too often.

 

So with that said, steadfast is the bane of MSU warrior armies. Sure you do a ton of damage on a charge, but with 2 ranks(typically all thats needed), opponents are steadfast and hold you up for some counter-charges. Gotta pick and choose where you attack, cant just go in there willy nilly.... 

 

As for a daemon prince, Id go with Belakor

[MexicanNinja]

I dont agree with this at all. 

 

There is a lot of strategy in being mobile and knowing where to attack and when.

 

WM can decimate WoC as well as a few good spells because you simply dont have many wounds on the table. The lack of static res will always be a problem with WoC, they must generate wounds, they are an army without rerolls so whiffing does happen, all too often.

 

So with that said, steadfast is the bane of MSU warrior armies. Sure you do a ton of damage on a charge, but with 2 ranks(typically all thats needed), opponents are steadfast and hold you up for some counter-charges. Gotta pick and choose where you attack, cant just go in there willy nilly.... 

 

I have to agree with fixxer, WoC armies are not forgiving.  Their leadership is not great, and they lack in the shooting department (the shooting phase is a phase that can wreck a lot of armies, as fixxer stated above).  They are pretty one-dimensional in the sense that every list is built for close combat.  Close combat is were this army excels; but again, as fixxer stated, when you flop on those dice rolls you are going to suffer from it.  Any mobile army can pretty much choose to dance around many WoC units.

 

Unless you are playing the "mindless" net list of double manticores, flying nurgle dp, triple chariot army, your first movement phase is your most significant one because of unit placement for turns 2-3 when you need to get your charges off.

[ClassicFlava]

Good to you on the fantasy side black vigil. I was your game 5 opponent (lizardmen). I too really like the idea of chaos knights in my WoC army. I think if they are going to charge elite infantry they need the support of a chariot to ensure they don't lose combat. I would try to avoid infantry blocks that are high strength unless you can kill them before they strike. If your charging a unit that is str 4 or lower you should be golden.